15: The Grim Joker

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:07:07
Brian
Welcome to Bat Lessons, the Batman History Podcast. I didn't I didn't say the Bat History podcast. I was really close.

00:00:07:07 - 00:00:20:09
Alex
Yes. But now that you've made a cut in any way.

00:00:20:11 - 00:00:24:11
Brian
Welcome to Bat Lessons, the Batman History Podcast. I'm Brian.

00:00:24:12 - 00:00:25:18
Alex
And I'm Alex.

00:00:25:19 - 00:00:41:15
Brian
And today we're going to talk more about the Joker specific. We're going to talk some more about possible inspirations. Last episode, we spoke about what Bill Finger, Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson said about the creation of The Joker. But what have others said?

00:00:41:16 - 00:00:54:11
Alex
What have others said? Indeed, there's a lot of ink spilled on this topic. Are you are you looking forward to hearing a little bit more about what may be true and what might be apocryphal?

00:00:54:13 - 00:01:15:08
Brian
Yes, this is some of the most interesting stuff that I've been learning with with you, like leading these these history episodes is all of the, I guess, contentious backstories and opinions. And then I'll all the plagiarism. So yeah, I'm hoping we're going to find some more of that as well.

00:01:15:10 - 00:01:33:14
Alex
Well, I think this is slightly a different category, which is something that I think we'll see a fair bit of as we go on, which is sort of a zealous fandom that likes to get excited about things. Right. And I'll let it speak for itself. Let's just leave it at that.

00:01:33:16 - 00:01:34:06
Brian
Sounds good.

00:01:34:11 - 00:02:01:15
Alex
If you remember, on the creation of the Batman episode, we spoke about Partners of Peril, which was a novelette from The Shadow. The Shadow was a pulp hero from, you know, the 1920s and thirties. It was a magazine that Bill Finger was was a reader of. It was one of the inspirations for Batman and Partners of Peril in particular was a story that Bill Finger lifted, Beat for Beat and Bob Kane even lifted drawings of for Detective Comics number 27.

00:02:01:15 - 00:02:25:06
Alex
So the very first Batman story ever was largely plagiarized, both art and story. There are many people, especially from the shadow fandom, that say that it goes further than this that partners a parallel is just the beginning. And for this episode, I decided not to quote any one person in particular because there are talking points that are repeated broadly that I tend to disagree with, and I don't want to put anybody on blast.

00:02:25:08 - 00:02:41:06
Alex
But I do want to share the types of things that people say and talk about what has merit and what doesn't try to sort of contextualize. So what they'll say is that the Joker isn't inspired by Conrad White. They'll say that that's the sort of legend making that, you know, the creators of Batman are going back and sort of trying to rewrite history.

00:02:41:08 - 00:02:41:16
Brian
Mm hmm.

00:02:41:22 - 00:02:59:15
Alex
Or at least that it's not primarily inspired in that way. They instead say that he's inspired by a pulp story called the Grimm Joker that was published in a magazine called The Whisperer in July of 1937, about three years before Batman number one. Here's some of the things they'll say. Here's the reasons they'll say. They'll say The Whisperer.

00:02:59:15 - 00:03:18:09
Alex
The title character of the book, His alter ego, is a police officer whose name is Commissioner James Gordon. This is true that that is something that is factually, factually accurate. They'll go on to say that the author of the Grimm Joker, the story is Theodore Tinsley, who wrote Cardinal's Partners of Peril in the Shadow magazine, is the same person.

00:03:18:11 - 00:03:40:10
Alex
That is also true. They'll say that the villain of the Grimm Joker, is a clown faced mob boss named the Joker. This is partially true. We'll get there. Okay. And then finally, they'll say that the man who laughs, Gwynn Plain, isn't a mobster, and the Grimm joker is. And so there's a straight line to be drawn, right? Yeah.

00:03:40:12 - 00:03:41:09
Alex
They'll say.

00:03:41:11 - 00:03:42:08
Brian
What?

00:03:42:10 - 00:03:52:12
Alex
So the joker from the. The pulp story that was in The Whisperer, the Grimm Joker is a mob boss, and Batman's joker is as well.

00:03:52:14 - 00:03:53:16
Brian
Yeah.

00:03:53:18 - 00:04:01:00
Alex
Kind of. Not really. See, this is why I take a little bit of trouble with it. Right. There's no more alike than that.

00:04:01:01 - 00:04:25:22
Brian
Yeah. So there's. I guess the problem I have with this is there's a difference between inspiration and, like, copying good art or something. Like, you can take inspiration from a bunch of things and use them together. Yeah. So this whole idea that, like, no, he couldn't be Gwen was a gwen plain because he wasn't a mobster. Yes, but that seems like some extremely flimsy logic.

00:04:26:01 - 00:04:41:14
Alex
You're hitting the nail on the head. The sort of like the vigor and the fervency of some of these fans would lead you to believe that it's a direct lift, just like partners of peril. Right. And even if you believe that it's an inspiration, which is possible, I mean, I wouldn't rule it out, although there's not a direct line, I don't think.

00:04:41:14 - 00:05:06:01
Alex
And I'll try to illustrate it. That doesn't mean it's a left. Right. We acknowledge all the time, like, you know, there's a lot that Zorro has in common with Batman. There's a lot that, like beats from Dracula that make it into Batman comic books. There are things that are inspirations without being plagiarism. Right. Right. And, you know, if you Google The Whisperer, the Grim Joker, Batman, you're going to find people who say it's plagiarism.

00:05:06:03 - 00:05:31:16
Alex
Right. So anyway, there's a less common claim and then the Grimm Joker being an inspiration and that there's a radio episode from The Shadow from March 10th, 1940, called The Laughing Corpse. That is also a primary inspiration for the Joker. And I also think that's tenuous and we'll talk about that as well. I think it's pretty likely that a lot of people that are saying these things have never watched the man who's who laughs.

00:05:31:18 - 00:05:41:01
Alex
They've probably never read the Grimm Joker, nor have they listened to the Laughing Corpse. It's kind of you know, we think of, you know, could you define meme for people?

00:05:41:02 - 00:06:11:12
Brian
Brain meme. Yeah. So I guess my personal definition of meme would be a recurring piece of Internet media of some sort that has grass that has grabbed on to kind of the grabbed onto society in such a way that it is repeated generally in some sort of sarcastic or humorous or sometimes passive aggressive manner. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

00:06:11:13 - 00:06:12:04
Brian
Mm hmm.

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Alex
Yeah. I think at Internet culture, we have, like, a meme blitz, right? Where there's, like, an image that has sort of a meaning, and then we sort of, like, map it on to something, or there's a video or a song or something that, like, it's this joke, but with this one little spin on it, right? And so we apply this idea to different things.

00:06:27:13 - 00:06:27:21
Brian
Yeah.

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Alex
If you if you if you go to the great sort of cultural repository of information that is Wikipedia, they would say that it's an idea, behavior or style that spreads by means of imitation from person to person within a culture and often carry symbolic meaning. So this is a thing that's repeated, right, that like, you know, if you have a fandom and you believe that it is a value and you want to sort of defend it or measure it upon, you know, measure it against a different one, then you have, you know, a truth that you believe that you can repeat to sort of like prop that up, if that makes sense.

00:07:06:20 - 00:07:43:22
Brian
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think this can get into like some philosophical grounds as well. And like, the difference between facts and truth. Hmm. You know, and what I think you could probably describe some of these fan theories as law at some point, because, like, like you were saying, they likely have not done their own research. They haven't read or watched or absorbed these different references directly from the source, but instead took somebody's word for it.

00:07:44:04 - 00:08:03:03
Alex
Yeah. Well, and to be honest with you, given that Partners apparel is a left right and I kind of did do some some reading and research on that and like, that's a slam dunk I expected when I started doing the research to feel the same way that this was a left as well because I'd seen it online. I heard it repeated.

00:08:03:05 - 00:08:27:07
Alex
And so, you know, when I got into the stories and sort of did some some critical thinking about it, I don't know that I feel that way anymore. But I hope for the rest of this episode maybe we can convey some of the learnings that I have, will summarize these stories, talk about it, and maybe you'll be convinced and you won't think it's really quite, you know, the theft or the the copying.

00:08:27:09 - 00:08:34:08
Alex
Or maybe you will maybe you'll, you'll feel more on sort of the shadow fan side. But we'll take you on that journey. How's that sound?

00:08:34:10 - 00:08:45:06
Brian
I love it. I'm totally down for it. I am kind of interested just to to ask one quick question at this point, because you were talking about The Whisperer.

00:08:45:08 - 00:08:45:16
Alex
Yes.

00:08:45:16 - 00:09:09:18
Brian
And I know that Batman does this thing where it calls upon like earlier stuff very frequently, like like if you watch Batman, the Animated series, Bruce Wayne's Pencoed code or something is going to be like 1939. And it's just because that was the first Batman issue. So The Whisperer. Is there any connection on that title, which is not Batman, but is there any connection to that?

00:09:09:18 - 00:09:11:20
Brian
And the bat Whisperer?

00:09:11:22 - 00:09:13:09
Alex
You mean the Bat was first the movie?

00:09:13:11 - 00:09:19:05
Brian
Yes. No, I don't see any connection between this. Okay. No, it just seems like an odd coincidence I had to ask about.

00:09:19:07 - 00:09:22:02
Alex
Yeah, No, that's fair. I don't think there is.

00:09:22:04 - 00:09:22:22
Brian
Go.

00:09:23:00 - 00:09:47:12
Alex
I think you'll come to find that there's actually no connection to Batman either. But I'm getting ahead of myself. So I think some of these misconceptions come from the. The only accessible way to get the story. The Grimm Joker. There was a reprints reprint in 2008 of the Shadow Pulps. They sort of collected them in magazine format, kind of more like trade paperback, but it was reprints of tons of stories.

00:09:47:13 - 00:10:11:20
Alex
They did tons of issues. They had a cover price of $12.95. And I don't know which issue this was. I want to say it's like the 10th or 11th. I should have had this in my notes. Shadow Volume nine in 2007. Copyright 2007. Although I think it actually came out in 2008. And this issue of the shadow print volumes, they decided to do a sort of like Batman inspiration issue.

00:10:11:22 - 00:10:33:01
Alex
So they they collected a bunch of stories, including Partners Apparel and the Grimm Joker and things that they sort of purport to have inspirations of the Batman. And so I think that's the reason that that people have this connection is because they they were sort of like casting a wide net and saying like, okay, we're gonna collect a lot of stories.

00:10:33:01 - 00:10:55:22
Alex
We want to have a themed issue. Let's put them all together and if you do research online, you'll often see that like the Grimm Joker, they'll call it a shadow story. Right. Which is not. And we'll get to it in a second. But it's not even a whisper or a story. They will say things like they'll cite events that happened in the radio story as happening in one of these stories that was in the pulp right there.

00:10:55:22 - 00:11:15:08
Alex
Sort of conflate two different things. They're like, Oh, there was a villain named The Joker, and he killed people by having them smile, which didn't happen. Right. But as far as I'm aware, this is the only way to get the story. The Grim Joker is not available online. Like, I could not find the text at all. Like, not even through, you know, the seventies.

00:11:15:10 - 00:11:35:04
Alex
I had to buy this on eBay. I found a copy for 30 bucks, which I thought was pretty reasonable for something that was, you know, a decade old and probably had a pretty limited print run. You'll find them on eBay. I definitely recommend looking it up if you're interested. And here's the deal. They're really great. I really enjoyed reading these stories so well worth it in my opinion.

00:11:35:04 - 00:11:55:03
Alex
If you're into the sort of noir pulp crime stuff, and even if you're not right now, you might find once we summarize the story that you are. So it took me the trigger took me about 45 minutes to read. And while it did appear in A Whisperer magazine, it's actually what's called a back up story. Are you familiar with the concept of the back up story, Brian?

00:11:55:05 - 00:11:57:05
Brian
No, I don't. I don't know if I am.

00:11:57:07 - 00:12:15:15
Alex
So this is something that we actually still do and complex to this day, which is we have a page count that we're trying to fill and or we might have a creative team that we're trying to grow. And basically you would get a comic book issue that has a primary story. So in comic books today, it would be an oversize issue.

00:12:15:15 - 00:12:29:09
Alex
So like the Batman was Batman was doing this for a while. Detective Comics was doing this for I don't know if they're still doing it, but they were like a year ago where instead of being 22 pages, which is the normal size of a comic book, it'll be like 34 pages. And instead of being like 399, it'll be for 99.

00:12:29:09 - 00:12:48:09
Alex
It's like an extra dollar. It's oversize every month. Or in the case of like Batman and Detective Comics, they're double shipping. So every other week and the first 20 pages is the Batman story written by the same, you know, creative team, you know, artist writer, duo. And then there'll be an additional set of pages at the end. That's a very short version.

00:12:48:10 - 00:13:05:09
Alex
It's called a backup story that's written by someone else. And like, maybe it's about Batman, maybe it's not. It's just kind of like, okay, here's a bonus story. So the whisperer alter ego, Commissioner James Gordon. Great. The Grimm Joker story printed in The Whisperer. Great. The Grimm Joker. Not a story about The Whisperer.

00:13:05:11 - 00:13:06:05
Brian
Yeah. Okay.

00:13:06:05 - 00:13:08:09
Alex
So Commissioner James, Jim Gordon not in it.

00:13:08:09 - 00:13:30:18
Brian
So I'm just trying to, like, think back through everything you're saying. So this back up story, I'm trying to think of good analogies for it or good comparisons. Um, it would be kind of like how podcasts have introducing other podcasts as like an episode except attack to the end of I mean, yeah, something like it.

00:13:30:20 - 00:13:33:23
Alex
It's kind of like a Pixar short in front of a picture. Oh, okay.

00:13:33:23 - 00:13:36:15
Brian
Pixar Sure. That's a good that's a better example.

00:13:36:16 - 00:13:56:04
Alex
It's like a little ten minute thing versus like the hour and a half, right? Basically unrelated comes from the same publisher, right? Maybe it has a team where they're trying to grow the talent like it's a bunch of green new writers and artists that are at the company. Right. They're doing something smaller, they're doing something lower risk. They're filling pages.

00:13:56:06 - 00:13:56:15
Alex
Right.

00:13:56:15 - 00:14:16:00
Brian
But but not necessarily teasing another story or another show. Got it right. Okay. Another thought. So this is a question and I might be asking you a question that's outside of what you researched. Yeah. So you're saying I guess, first of all, 2008 there was a shadow reprint series. Yes.

00:14:16:04 - 00:14:17:21
Alex
Printing something in my pants.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:33:01
Brian
Three stories that they say inspired Batman. Yes. So what do you think happened there? Do you think that this is just clickbait where they're just trying to get sales on the shadow by saying like this, that these are the stories that inspired Batman? Yeah.

00:14:33:03 - 00:14:58:11
Alex
So I think the fandom took this and decided to say these are this is plagiarism online. Right? And they misunderstood. Right? They know this thing exists. Some people read it. A lot of people probably didn't. And they they say, you know, Batman is wholesale wholesale rip off of the shadow of not even understanding that some of these stories aren't even written by, you know, the shadow authors or appearing in the shadow, right?

00:14:58:12 - 00:14:59:04
Brian
Mm hmm.

00:14:59:06 - 00:15:06:03
Alex
No, I think that this collection is just they're collecting stories and they wanted to have a theme for that month.

00:15:06:05 - 00:15:12:17
Brian
Okay. In fact, and these this is an official print, not a like an unofficial. That's right. Copy. It's official. Okay.

00:15:12:17 - 00:15:24:15
Alex
Yeah, it was. It was done by Condé Nast, which is a huge publisher. And they they licensed the stories from Advance magazine publishers. So whoever that is. But they're the people that own the shadow license.

00:15:24:15 - 00:15:27:03
Brian
What a lazy name.

00:15:27:05 - 00:15:29:21
Alex
Well, it's probably was named in the thirties.

00:15:29:23 - 00:15:35:21
Brian
Yeah, it probably was back when everything was just named exactly what it was like, like flyswatter.

00:15:35:23 - 00:15:46:07
Alex
In fact. And that's a good Segway. I had this in a different part of the show notes, but let's do it now. Okay. The foreword to this reprint collection was written by Jerry Robinson.

00:15:46:09 - 00:16:03:11
Brian
No way. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. And and this is so connecting for the for the audience. So Jerry Robinson was one of the authors for Batman and the early issues.

00:16:03:12 - 00:16:13:21
Alex
Yeah he's he's he's the one that we in our episode basically gave credit for creating the joke. Right. He was the one that had the Joker card drawing, right?

00:16:14:02 - 00:16:23:05
Brian
He's the one who seemed to be the most reliable storyteller on where the Joker came from. Yeah, he he drew the card, and then.

00:16:23:07 - 00:16:24:02
Alex
He was trying.

00:16:24:02 - 00:16:25:09
Brian
To steal that from him.

00:16:25:09 - 00:16:26:00
Alex
Right? Yes.

00:16:26:03 - 00:16:33:14
Brian
Okay. And so then that's really interesting that they're having him do the foreword on this thing because it gives it credibility.

00:16:33:16 - 00:16:45:06
Alex
Yeah, well, the thing is that they're not saying this is plagiarism. They're saying this is some stories that could be inspirations, right? Mm hmm. Let's let's read a little bit of what what Jay Robinson says.

00:16:45:08 - 00:17:10:10
Brian
Okay. Jerry Robinson, foreword in the Shadow Book. Excerpts from excerpts from Yes, Yes. Okay. I remember those early days working with Bob and the co-creator writer Bill Finger with a great deal of fondness. Bob was seven years older than I was. He was making the jump from Bigfoot cartoonist to adventure artist and made a remarkable transition in a very short time.

00:17:10:12 - 00:17:22:06
Brian
We were all working 16 and 18 hour days on Batman, which is this is just me, Brian, talking that's grueling. Yeah. Holy smokes. I can't imagine. Yeah.

00:17:22:08 - 00:17:27:23
Alex
Brian and I both did the startup world, which was like a lot of hard work. And I don't know if we were doing 16, 18 hour days. That's not.

00:17:28:01 - 00:17:51:09
Brian
No, If I did like a couple of all nighters, I did like a handful of really crazy long days like that, but not regularly. No, that's insane. Yeah, the three of us eight slept, lived and dreamed Batman. It was all encompassing. I also believe that they dream Batman. I've. I've had dreams about things that I've spent too much time on.

00:17:51:10 - 00:18:17:13
Brian
Totally. We couldn't go out for lunch or dinner without discussing the characters and future story ideas. I was a newcomer to the big city and Bill took me under his wing. He was my cultural mentor. Bill didn't have much formal education, but was extremely well-read. He was a student of pulps and radio drama, but his influences also included Duma, Shakespeare, the Saturday Evening Post, National Geographic and popular Mechanics.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:48:18
Brian
Our generation didn't grow up with comic book superheroes, so we had to invent the genre. As we went along. We were influenced by the mystery men who had dominated the newsstands during our teenage years Pulp Adventures like Doc Savage and the Shadow. Batman inherited. The shadows, world of dark alleys, rooftops, skylights, secret passages, death traps and chiaroscuro as superbly visualized by Tom Level and Ed Cartier in the Shadow magazine.

00:18:48:20 - 00:19:20:10
Brian
It's understandable that Bob and Bill looked forward to the Shadow when called upon to create a new hero after the runaway success of Jerry SIEGEL. SIEGEL and SIEGEL Jerry SIEGEL and Joe Shuster's Superman. Joe SHUSTER Superman and I, I apologize to the editor, whoever that is. Many elements of Superman were inspired by Doc Savage. So it's hardly surprising They looked for inspiration to Doc Savage's sister magazine.

00:19:20:12 - 00:19:55:01
Brian
The Shadow had revitalized the publishing world in 1931 by reviving the long dormant single hero format that mushroomed with the arrival of comic books like Superman, Batman, the Green Hornet, Daredevil, The Black Terror, and Atom in Walter Gibson's shadow novels had laid much of the groundwork for comic book superheroes. Bill Finger was a devoted fan of Maxwell Grant, but ironically chose to emulate Theodore Tim's Tinsley's Theodore Tinsley's Partners of Peril.

00:19:55:02 - 00:19:56:06
Brian
Yeah, the first.

00:19:56:06 - 00:20:15:11
Alex
I should interject and do some translation here. Walter Gibson was the original author of the Shadow novels and Theodore Tinsley is the person who wrote Partners Apparel kind of took over. But all of them were under a pen name of Maxwell Grant. So The Shadow was always supposedly written by first name Maxwell Grant, but not always. They rotated through different writers.

00:20:15:13 - 00:20:43:20
Brian
It's like the Dread Pirate Roberts. Indeed. So Walter Gibson's shadow novels had laid much of the groundwork for comic book superheroes. Bill Finger was a devoted fan of, quote, Maxwell Grant, unquote, but ironically chose to emulate Theodore Tinsley's Partners of Peril, the first shadow novel not written by Gibson. I'm astounded to learn how much Bill's first Batman script borrowed from that novel.

00:20:43:22 - 00:21:10:01
Brian
Of course, at the time, Bill was just beginning his career and struggling to shift from humor to adventure strips, just as Bob Kane was with the art, which is an interesting little jab. Bill was fast becoming the most inventive scriptwriter in comics and would soon create Green Lantern with Martin Hotel and Wildcat with Erwin Hasson. Given the ephemeral nature of Pulp Fiction.

00:21:10:04 - 00:21:41:12
Brian
I'm sure they never expected their first Batman story to be traced back to a two and a half year old pulp thriller. Especially since some 60 additional shadow novels had been published during the interim. Bill Finger was comics best writer, but he was a slow, meticulous craftsman who spent lots of time doing research. Artists loved his scripts because he was the most visual writer in the business and frequently included photo reference with his scripts so we could see exactly what he had in mind.

00:21:41:14 - 00:21:45:20
Alex
And then he he retells his version of the Joker story with the card and all that kind of stuff.

00:21:45:22 - 00:22:14:06
Brian
Yeah, I have no idea if Bill Finger was aware of the earlier Joker that had appeared in the Whisperer in 1937, or the murderous Harlequin that The Shadow encountered in 1939. It was probably lucky for us that I that neither Theodor Tansley nor his editor had realized what a great continuing counterpoint a sinister clown could prove provide for a grim detective like the Shadow or Batman.

00:22:14:08 - 00:22:38:13
Alex
Yeah. So I read this as Jerry basically saying like, Yeah, definitely Partners Apparel's left. I'm kind of surprised by that. Yeah. I don't know so much about The Whisperer story, the Grim Joker. I don't really know about the radio show from 1939, The The Laughing Corpse. But, you know, they didn't pursue continuing to have, you know, a clown counterpoint.

00:22:38:13 - 00:22:41:07
Alex
So joke's on them.

00:22:41:09 - 00:22:45:01
Brian
Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad they didn't think of this.

00:22:45:03 - 00:22:55:17
Alex
Yeah, basically, he didn't, you know, and he doesn't rule it out. There might be some inspiration there, but he he definitely doesn't sort of acknowledge it or elevate it like he does the other ones.

00:22:55:19 - 00:23:18:11
Brian
Right. So I'm kind of curious what, uh, this is kind of a weird cut in to ask this question. No, but when I was reading through Partners, Apparel came out again. Yeah. And I was curious if there was anything you knew about Partners in Peril, which was a Batman videogame.

00:23:18:12 - 00:23:19:22
Alex
I don't know anything about it. No.

00:23:20:00 - 00:23:23:02
Brian
Okay. 1996. I was just kind of curious.

00:23:23:04 - 00:23:25:14
Alex
Probably an homage and intentional.

00:23:25:14 - 00:23:26:10
Brian
Am I? Certainly. Yeah.

00:23:26:11 - 00:23:29:04
Alex
That sounds that I. There's no way. That's not right.

00:23:29:06 - 00:23:30:05
Brian
It's kind of. I was thinking.

00:23:30:10 - 00:23:53:03
Alex
Okay, so, yeah. Grim Joker. It took me about 45 minutes. Reed did appear in the Whisper magazine. No, its backstory doesn't include the main character, Commissioner Gordon. Totally different. Unrelated. Mm hmm. This story follows a detective sergeant named Terry Black, who is called to a crime scene by an anonymous tip. They said that there were two gangsters who were killed, but when they get there, there's only one body.

00:23:53:06 - 00:24:12:18
Alex
So Terry Black's there. He's checking out the body. He's investigating. There's a medical examiner named Dolson, a fingerprint guy and a few uniformed cops. And they decide that because the tip was for two bodies, they decided to start looking for the other body. It's a single bedroom and a tenement. So they would have had shared bathrooms. Was just a just a square room, mostly empty.

00:24:12:19 - 00:24:32:22
Alex
And they start going around and they're knocking on the walls looking for a secret door, banging on it. And they don't find anything that, you know, nothing sounds hollow, but suddenly there's a gunshot and it shoots from event on the wall, crossed the room into another wall, and a guy goes, oh. And they're like, Oh, my gosh, there's someone inside there.

00:24:33:00 - 00:24:54:05
Alex
So they open the wall and it turns out that it was it sounded like it wasn't hollow because there was rock wall insulation, which was unusual, I guess. Yeah, right. That's rock wall behind them. There you go. Yeah. So the other dude is dead. So obviously, like whoever called in the tap, it was like announcing a murder that was going to happen.

00:24:54:07 - 00:24:58:03
Alex
This is another locker room plot kind of thing. Right. Like, oh, how did it, you know?

00:24:58:04 - 00:25:04:11
Brian
Yeah. So there was two, but there wasn't at the time of the tip. So they became two.

00:25:04:13 - 00:25:08:04
Alex
They called the police there to have them witness the second murder. Right.

00:25:08:09 - 00:25:09:07
Brian
Mm hmm.

00:25:09:09 - 00:25:24:06
Alex
So they find that the gun is hanging in the air vent from a string, and it has what's called catgut. I didn't know what this was. I had to look it up, but it's like a type of, like, string, I guess, that you make from catgut or other animal stuff. Apparently, it's common.

00:25:24:08 - 00:25:25:06
Brian
It's very common.

00:25:25:08 - 00:25:47:08
Alex
I had no idea. It's tied around the trigger. So someone could pull it remotely. Very MacGyver kind of thing. So Terry decides to follow the duct that the vein is connected to, up to the roof to see if he can find who pulled the string. And during this, he's having an internal monologue. So the whole time, Terry Black has suspected that these employees are employed by some of these thugs or employed by a ringleader called the Joker, who's been giving the police a really hard time.

00:25:47:08 - 00:26:08:19
Alex
He does any and all crime. He does robberies, protection rackets, murderers, you name it. And in particular, what the Joker is known for is moving people in mysterious ways like they hire a safecracker to crack a safe at a bank for a bank robbery. And everyone knows that it's this particular safecracker. Like they get tips like it's word on the street that, like, this guy is the one that did it.

00:26:09:00 - 00:26:28:18
Alex
But they're able to respond to the robbery, like, right away. Like they set up a cordon. There's a line, they circle the building and there's no way that anyone could have gotten out of there. Yeah. Ensure that. That whoever's playing, they're going to catch him. But The Safecracker shows up the next day in Detroit and turns himself into the police station and says, Hey, I'm told I'm wanted for this thing, but I've been in Detroit this whole time.

00:26:28:18 - 00:26:45:19
Alex
I've got an alibi. Right? So how did the safecracker flee from New York to get to Detroit? Right. The Joker has made it happen somehow. That's the word on the street, is that the Joker can. Can move people. Right. And, yeah, for whatever reason, Black thinks that. That these guys are employed by the Joker. I guess because he knows the criminal element.

00:26:45:19 - 00:26:48:11
Alex
He kind of knows the dotted lines between different people.

00:26:48:13 - 00:26:49:03
Brian
Okay.

00:26:49:05 - 00:27:07:06
Alex
So he's having internal monologue. He rushes up to the top of the roof. There's no one there. And he looks down over the side of the bridge to see if maybe someone is fleeing. And there isn't. But there are some police officers leaving the scene. So the fingerprint guy is leaving. One of the uniformed police officers leaving. They kind of go around the corner and then Dolson, the medical investigator, kind of leaves.

00:27:07:12 - 00:27:24:11
Alex
And as he's walking by the building across the street, someone opens a door and reaches out, grabs Dolson and pulls him inside. And he's like, Oh my gosh, Dotson's been kidnaped. The medical examiner. And so Black sees that there's a electrical line that connects to the building that he's in with the one across the street that that the medical examiner just got pulled into.

00:27:24:11 - 00:27:30:04
Alex
So he goes hand over hand and climbs across and goes into a second story window.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:39:20
Brian
I was going to ask you how high that was until you said the second story window, because I was like, that's incredibly dangerous. Why would you do that second story window, not that dangerous.

00:27:39:22 - 00:27:57:19
Alex
Well, because he's also the thing about Terry Black is that we get the vibe through all of this or I do that. He's very kind of like James Bond, who's the protagonist, Jack Ryan, I guess, you know, that kind of thing. Mm hmm. Even though he's just a police officer. So he goes into that bedroom and there's a goon sleeping on the cot.

00:27:57:20 - 00:28:02:05
Alex
Just a guy, big guy. And but blackness is taking it. He's not actually sleeping. If you're.

00:28:02:05 - 00:28:07:15
Brian
Saying he's just a police officer, maybe he's more like Bruce Willis and all of the die hard movies.

00:28:07:18 - 00:28:25:12
Alex
100%. And you know what? Like, as I'm reading this, I'm definitely getting the vibe that like, oh, like this is where some of these tropes are set up, you know, this is where some of the the braggadocio, like masculine, like, yeah, that where some of the archetypes come from.

00:28:25:14 - 00:28:42:16
Brian
Yeah, I would like to see the, like Austin Powers version of this where it's just making fun of it because it has it doing that hand over hand crossing that, that rope between those buildings. I was thinking like, Oh, that's really dangerous. But then when you said it was the second story, I was like, Oh, that's really not dangerous.

00:28:42:16 - 00:28:50:22
Brian
In fact, there's probably enough stretch in that court. His feet were almost touching the ground. When he is going across.

00:28:51:00 - 00:29:09:14
Alex
So yeah, he climbs into the to the through the window. The second story there's a goon sleeping on court and black is like, you're not actually sleeping. You know, you can't fool me. But turns out there's another good in the room that Black doesn't know about. Literally. Does a rope pull on him, knocks them over and they get him.

00:29:09:14 - 00:29:26:04
Alex
They tie him up and they show in a corner of the room or they take him to another room. And in the corner of that room there's a body that has a sheet over it and they pull the sheet off and it's decapitated. And they say, this is the medical examiner, you know, this would be you. But the Joker wants to talk to you.

00:29:26:06 - 00:29:30:09
Alex
So, you know, they're trying to scare him like, don't mess with us. Right.

00:29:30:13 - 00:29:35:02
Brian
And that would be pretty scary. Yeah. A body that's tied up and decapitated.

00:29:35:02 - 00:29:35:19
Alex
Yes.

00:29:35:21 - 00:30:05:03
Brian
I hope I never see that. Yeah. There's also I'm kind of curious. Yeah. Is this supposed to be lighthearted in any way? Because the story. Yeah, because it seemed like it was okay. This is something that does seem along the lines of, like, Batman comics and stuff. And then they pulled out like a decapitated body, which is like an extreme escalation.

00:30:05:03 - 00:30:10:11
Alex
No, I don't think it's supposed to be lighthearted. I think this is like an adult oriented fiction, like a murder mystery.

00:30:10:11 - 00:30:11:03
Brian
So scary.

00:30:11:05 - 00:30:27:18
Alex
Okay. Yeah. Slash action hero thing. So, yeah, after they show him the body, they go and they get a coffin and they bring the coffin in and it's got, you know, a lid in two parts. Like you would have the body kind of all underneath one lid and then the face under the other. They take the larger lid that covers all of his body.

00:30:27:20 - 00:30:46:02
Alex
They put it on and they screw it in with a screwdriver so he can't get out. His hands are tied, his feet are tied. He's in there. And at this time, black screams and yells and then pretends to faint. Right. Because he's freaking out. He fakes a panic attack, he faints, he closed his eyes. Right? And they're like, Hahaha, you're such a like, scaredy cat, right?

00:30:46:03 - 00:30:47:08
Brian
Your you're ear was.

00:30:47:08 - 00:30:54:15
Alex
Yeah, yeah. And they take pennies and they put them on his eyes, which is like one of those things you do with a dead person or whatever, right?

00:30:54:15 - 00:31:06:12
Brian
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the coins to get into Hades. Right. I don't know. Sticks. Yeah. Instead to pay, pay the alley and now this immediately I feel kind of bad.

00:31:06:12 - 00:31:29:13
Alex
Whatever the case is all very McJob. He's in a he's in a coffin. I've seen dead people. He ferryman the ferryman. Okay. Yeah. And after they put the pennies on his eyes, they leave. I don't know. They're going to get more screws or something. They're taking care of some other business. They leave. He then takes the penny off of one of the pennies off from his eyes, and he uses it to start unscrewing the screws for the lid of the coffin.

00:31:29:15 - 00:31:31:04
Brian
Wow. Yeah.

00:31:31:06 - 00:32:02:10
Alex
So he unscrews himself, gets hold of the coffin off and does his ties, like, loosens his hands, gets out under his feet and decides to go looking in the house for these guys. And so he goes downstairs and he goes down to the basement and he finds like a trap door over a big hole in the ground. And he opens up the hole and he looks inside and he can tell that it's like 20 feet drop and there's a tunnel that's attached at the bottom of the hole that kind of goes into the distance.

00:32:02:12 - 00:32:22:01
Alex
And he's thinking about, like maybe going down there. And then he hears two voices coming back and it's the goons and he sees lights and he's like, Oh, crap. And so he closes the metal door and finds a nearby closet and gets inside the closet and the goons climb up out of the hole. There's a ladder, and they open the door and there they heard the metal door closed.

00:32:22:01 - 00:32:34:02
Alex
And they know that he's in there somewhere. And they think, Oh man, maybe he's in the closet. And they start shooting at the closet with the guns. And this is a chapter break, by the way. So like, there's several chapter breaks and it's like, oh, no, like he's he's going to get shot.

00:32:34:04 - 00:32:42:12
Brian
And this is the book that you read right? Yeah. I'm so impressed. I like I can't read at all.

00:32:42:14 - 00:32:44:22
Alex
It's it took me about 45 minutes. It's a novelette.

00:32:45:04 - 00:32:46:14
Brian
It's okay.

00:32:46:16 - 00:32:51:06
Alex
About ten, ten pages, loving pages in this main sized.

00:32:51:08 - 00:33:00:18
Brian
Okay, I'm a little bit less impressed, but still, I don't. I just. I don't have any time to read. I if I audiobook everything because, like, I can't I don't have the discipline to just say, well, there's.

00:33:00:18 - 00:33:01:13
Alex
No audio books.

00:33:01:15 - 00:33:02:21
Brian
This is these words. So this is the.

00:33:03:02 - 00:33:32:16
Alex
Only format that I could find this. So chapter break, right? They come back and he's like crouched down and they're shooting at the top of the of the so of the closet so they don't hit him and he like busts out and fights them. Right. Very like two on one they've got guns in Indiana Jones you know takes him out and it sort of involves like he knocks one of the guns down the the hole and then they end up knocking him down the hole and he's like, really banged up, but he's got a gun.

00:33:32:21 - 00:33:47:03
Alex
And so they're like leaning over and they're going to shoot at him. But he shoots them first, right? And so he kills them both with the gun from the bottom of the hole and they're at the top. But somehow it happens that like the metal door closes and their body falls on top and now he can't lift it from the other side.

00:33:47:03 - 00:33:48:18
Alex
So it's too heavy, right?

00:33:48:20 - 00:33:54:09
Brian
This guy's got terrible. Look at this. This is such an intense story, too.

00:33:54:11 - 00:34:28:00
Alex
It's it's action packed. The whole thing is like, this happens and then this happens and this happens and this happens. There's no, like, character development. There's no, like, moment to breathe. There's no like, it's very much action, action, action, action. So he decides to he can't go out, so he has to go down the tunnel and he realizes that where he's going probably is the sewer because he's far enough down under the streets that that's probably how the Joker moves stuff and that the reason they were putting him in a coffin is because a coffin would float in the water.

00:34:28:02 - 00:34:44:14
Alex
Right. And then he puts together that like, oh, he knows that just like three doors down on the street there's an undertaker. And so they were probably going to put him in the coffin. Coffin and take him to the undertaker's place. And now he's like this undertaker who he knows his name. It's like, Let me go to my notes here.

00:34:44:16 - 00:34:47:04
Alex
I've been working without my notes for a few minutes.

00:34:47:06 - 00:34:50:00
Brian
Like Edward Nygma or some other no direct drip.

00:34:50:05 - 00:34:51:13
Alex
It's like Adolph something.

00:34:51:15 - 00:34:57:00
Brian
Oh, that's good. He loves a good Adolf name. Tolson? No. Adolf Marx.

00:34:57:02 - 00:35:13:17
Alex
Right. So he's like, okay, undertakers on the street, They're going to put me in a coffin. UNDERTAKER'S The the Joker, Adolf Marx The undertaker is the Joker. And he moves people through the sewer. So, like, puts it together. Internal monologue, right? So he goes down the tunnel, he finds a door at the end of the tunnel, opens it up.

00:35:13:22 - 00:35:30:12
Alex
He's got a flashlight. He turns on the flashlight, looks around. Sure enough, it's the sewers. There's a rowboat in the sewer. He decides to get in because, like, the only way out is through. Right? And so he gets in the rowboat and he, like, rose down. And sure enough, like three doors down, he finds another door that's like in the doors, by the way, aren't supposed to be there.

00:35:30:12 - 00:35:49:01
Alex
They like, you know, blast out the side of like the brick of the sewer or whatever. And he finds it right. And decides that he's going to go in to the undertaker's place or whatever. And so he gets up on the platform. But there's a goon there, right? And he gets in a fight with a goon. He kills again, like, wow.

00:35:49:03 - 00:36:09:05
Alex
Yeah. Like, chokes him out and then uses a gun and, like, hits him in the head and decides that because he's in the undertaker's place, this is like the lair, right? The evil lair. And he doesn't want to be detected. He's not going to use his flashlight. So he turns this flashlight off and he, like, puts his hand on the wall and he walks down the hallway, like guiding himself with the hand.

00:36:09:10 - 00:36:29:19
Alex
And he gets to the end because the wall ends and like he reaches out and it's cold in there and he gets the vibe that, like, he's just walked into a large room, right? And suddenly lights turn on right and it's really blinding light and like, chapter break, right? And then we go to the next chapter and he's in what looks like like a kind of a it's like a mortuary, right?

00:36:29:19 - 00:36:47:22
Alex
Like there's kind of like a a medical like, you know, there's tables and things and stuff and there's the joker's there at a table and the Joker sitting there at a table, and he goes, I listen to the whole fight through a microphone because I've got mad technology. And so even though you were quiet, I knew you were coming.

00:36:48:00 - 00:37:06:15
Alex
And I had a photo electric sensor, which I think is wild. This is the thing. And like when you walked through this, you know, infrared light or whatever, you tripped a thing. And that's what turned on the lights, right? Like, I've got this mad technology, like waiting for you, this trap, right? And we're going to kill you. Right?

00:37:06:17 - 00:37:08:20
Alex
You've you've crossed the wrong person, right?

00:37:08:22 - 00:37:09:20
Brian
Wow. Okay.

00:37:10:00 - 00:37:29:12
Alex
This is where they describe the Joker and they only describe him a couple of times. And it's it's exactly like this. And it is, quote, horribly vague. It face that is actually a mask. Mask slid it over the eyes and mouth. That's it. That's the entire description. So wax mask. So I'm envisioning entirely white with slits for eyes and a mouth.

00:37:29:14 - 00:37:36:12
Alex
And I'll leave that for what you will. There's no illustrations, right? Whether that sounds like the Joker to you or not.

00:37:36:18 - 00:37:39:02
Brian
The bat doesn't sound like the Joker.

00:37:39:02 - 00:37:40:17
Alex
Too. I don't think it does.

00:37:40:19 - 00:37:43:19
Brian
It sounds like V for Vendetta.

00:37:43:21 - 00:38:04:04
Alex
Maybe a little bit, Yeah. So, yeah, they grabbed Harry, they took him to an embalming table, and they're going to pump and full of embalming fluid alive to kill him. But breaks out. He goes James Bond. He goes Sam Fisher, Splinter cell, right. And he's spraying embalming fluid in the Joker's face and he's fighting dudes right? Joker runs away and he's like, Oh, no.

00:38:04:05 - 00:38:25:18
Alex
And he runs to his desk and he hits a hidden button. And then like, a door opens up behind his desk and it's an elevator and he climbs, tries to get on the elevator and like, Terry Black is like coming behind him and he grabs him and like, they're tussling on the elevator. That's like going up. And the Joker's arm gets caught between the floor, the elevator and the ceiling and like the crutches arm and like, pull the shoulder out of the socket, right?

00:38:25:19 - 00:38:49:20
Alex
Yeah. And like, Terry's like, get ready to kill him. He's like, he's sitting above them. He's like, No, I won't. And then all of a sudden, a bunch of police show up and Terry's like, Oh, you got my message. And they're like, Yeah, we got your message. And then they go on to explain that, like before Terry got off the rowboat, like he wrote like a message that like, Oh, I'm at the undertaker's place and it's the Joker and, you know, you've got to come help Sin back up.

00:38:49:20 - 00:38:58:01
Alex
And he puts it in the robot. Mike pushes the robot on because of like, of course it's going to come out somewhere. Police are going to find it. They're going to read it, they're going to come back up. Yeah, it's very stupid.

00:38:58:01 - 00:39:00:18
Brian
So flimsy since this is.

00:39:00:18 - 00:39:02:04
Alex
That's all things a little ridiculous.

00:39:02:06 - 00:39:06:01
Brian
It's it's it's a message in a bottle. Yes.

00:39:06:03 - 00:39:12:03
Alex
I think they try to explain it away of like, oh, I know that it's going to open up at this place. In this place there because of this reason. But like, it's it's.

00:39:12:05 - 00:39:15:09
Brian
Because I know the sewer system so well, like everyone does.

00:39:15:09 - 00:39:16:00
Alex
Yeah.

00:39:16:01 - 00:39:18:17
Brian
Call me Pennywise. Yes.

00:39:18:19 - 00:39:43:11
Alex
And then he keeps monologuing. Right. Like after he had this ingenious thing to, like, get back up to come help him. Right. And he explains that the Joker has multiple identities. Not only is he Adolf Marx, the fake undertaker. Right? Not a real undertaker, but he's also Dolson, the medical examiner. But what's turns out the decapitated body from earlier wasn't Dolson, which Terry knew immediately.

00:39:43:11 - 00:39:59:05
Alex
He knew it the whole time because it wasn't the right size body, wasn't the right person, and he knows Dotson Right. So the reason that they have the body is because they wanted to convince him that Dawson was dead. And so they were covering for some reason why, because he's the Joker.

00:39:59:07 - 00:40:00:18
Brian
Wow.

00:40:00:20 - 00:40:06:02
Alex
And they take off his mask and it's Dolson, the medical examiner.

00:40:06:04 - 00:40:17:01
Brian
So this type of story is like kind of frustrating to me where it's like the character is like doing internal monologue. He's like, telling you his thoughts and, oh, this one's out loud. Apparently the.

00:40:17:01 - 00:40:17:13
Alex
Other cops.

00:40:17:13 - 00:40:30:21
Brian
But but apparently there are thoughts in his head that they answered Yes, yes. Yeah. And so and they're only revealed at the end when that's the the like linchpin or whatever to solving the crime.

00:40:30:23 - 00:40:33:05
Alex
I have to tell you, it was a very fun to read.

00:40:33:10 - 00:40:44:17
Brian
I imagine it was. You say it's action packed like and it's short and they threw all that stuff in there like, Yeah, yeah. But it was a beat. It was a roller coaster. Yeah.

00:40:44:18 - 00:41:03:18
Alex
And it's very much in the pulp style if you've ever heard that they like charged by the word. That's true. Right. Like writers were paid based on like how much they were able to do. And when you hear people talk about that, they always say that like, oh, it's padded out and it's like really bad and obnoxious. And you get the vibe that they're trying to make it as big as they can.

00:41:03:18 - 00:41:20:14
Alex
But it's also done by someone who's talented, so they always use five words when one will do, and they use very descriptive language. When they do it, it conveys a tone and a vibe. So they're doing it well, right? And action, action never really stops for any sort of breather. He just goes from one place to the next.

00:41:20:16 - 00:41:28:01
Alex
You see action movie tropes here. You see James Bond in this for sure. Like if you're into like early James Bond, you'll like this.

00:41:28:03 - 00:41:43:05
Brian
Yeah, I've read I've read like five or six of the first James Bond movie books. Yeah, I got a lot of reminiscence. They're like, He's the kind to unscrew the the screw, you know, which is like MacGyver a bit as well.

00:41:43:07 - 00:41:46:18
Alex
And then the gun that's like hanging the men is also MacGyver. Right?

00:41:46:19 - 00:41:47:05
Brian
Right.

00:41:47:05 - 00:41:47:23
Alex
The photo, that's.

00:41:47:23 - 00:41:48:08
Brian
The.

00:41:48:10 - 00:41:53:05
Alex
Cell thing that he trips the and the microphones, which is high technology, right?

00:41:53:10 - 00:42:00:00
Brian
Yeah. Crazy high technology for the time. Yeah. If you're saying this is before 1939 or is 1913, and that's.

00:42:00:00 - 00:42:01:14
Alex
That's like 1937, I think.

00:42:01:16 - 00:42:03:23
Brian
Is incredible technology for the time. Yeah.

00:42:03:23 - 00:42:05:12
Alex
Yeah. Almost sci fi.

00:42:05:14 - 00:42:09:14
Brian
Yeah. And I mean they so for context.

00:42:09:20 - 00:42:10:14
Alex
Yeah.

00:42:10:16 - 00:42:30:16
Brian
They're, they're little things that I pick out of like history that I find interesting. Like we, we've had shoes for a long time, but shoes for the right foot and for the left foot, like distinctly made for one side of your foot were like an invention around the time of the American Civil War. So now 64 is just another 1864, rather.

00:42:30:18 - 00:42:51:07
Brian
And we didn't actually get like harness electricity with like generators until like the 1890s or something. So like human history is like 100,000 years of evolution or whatever. Yeah, we almost got electricity before footed shoes, you know, like there's just little things like that that just stand out to me and like.

00:42:51:07 - 00:42:53:14
Alex
And this is like decades later and they're talking about this.

00:42:53:14 - 00:42:54:16
Brian
Is like 30 years later.

00:42:54:16 - 00:42:58:04
Alex
Yeah, photoelectric sensors and microphones and speakers and.

00:42:58:06 - 00:43:05:07
Brian
Yeah, crazy high technology. And we didn't have computers for another 40 years after that. No longer. Yeah, well.

00:43:05:07 - 00:43:11:22
Alex
So for you, like vacuum tube computers or mechanical piers, we actually had mechanical computers and we're watching this just a few years later.

00:43:11:22 - 00:43:18:23
Brian
But that's true. Mechanical ones like the the she was any enigma. Yeah. Oh, the NIAC. Yeah.

00:43:19:00 - 00:43:22:07
Alex
Yeah. It was cracking the enigma code was the in the. Yeah.

00:43:22:09 - 00:43:27:16
Brian
Yeah. But the enigma itself was a mechanical computer.

00:43:27:16 - 00:43:35:11
Alex
Yes, it was. Right. But these are not computers that you would think of. These are right. Yeah. Different Than digital computer.

00:43:35:13 - 00:43:41:14
Brian
Yeah. I mean it's more like a breadboard. Like it's just a series of wires that do extremely basic.

00:43:41:16 - 00:43:42:11
Alex
But these are like.

00:43:42:11 - 00:43:42:23
Brian
Switches.

00:43:43:02 - 00:43:46:04
Alex
Gears and levers pulleys.

00:43:46:04 - 00:43:50:06
Brian
But mechanical computers group like The Enigma is like a series of wires.

00:43:50:06 - 00:43:54:13
Alex
Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, Stack.

00:43:54:15 - 00:43:55:05
Brian
Yep. Yep.

00:43:55:07 - 00:44:08:19
Alex
So the villain is named the Joker, but otherwise, to my mind and to my estimation, shares no similar similarities with Joker. For Batman. Number one, he's an undertaker. Turn to crime. Boss wears a white mask.

00:44:08:21 - 00:44:09:13
Brian
Mm hmm.

00:44:09:15 - 00:44:12:11
Alex
Kind of like a clown, maybe.

00:44:12:13 - 00:44:24:20
Brian
Yes. Agree with you. It's something that is sticking with me, and I'm. I'm aware of my own brain and how going forward from here, I will. All of these stories. Confused?

00:44:24:21 - 00:44:25:15
Alex
Sure.

00:44:25:17 - 00:44:50:10
Brian
No question. It's just going to happen. I have to, like, really think hard not to let this stuff mix up in the blender. That is my brain, sure. But there's like and this is like a whole episode, but there's like historically three main types of Joker. There is the Gangster Joker, which is it's all organized crime. He's trying to get rich.

00:44:50:12 - 00:45:17:18
Brian
And that would be like Jack Nicholson's Joker. That's like the golden Age Joker. Then there is the, like, goofy Joker who is just like trying to foil Batman or like, cause trouble but isn't trying to hurt anyone, isn't trying to get rich. Like, is just, just a goof. That's like the Silver Age Batman or excuse me, this is Silver is Joker, which should be like, Is it Romero's Joker is as named Cesar Romero.

00:45:17:18 - 00:45:18:05
Alex
Yeah.

00:45:18:07 - 00:45:19:06
Brian
Cesar Romero did.

00:45:19:06 - 00:45:21:17
Alex
It in Batman 66, the TV show.

00:45:21:19 - 00:45:48:11
Brian
And then there's like the modern or the modern Joker who is just anarchy. He's he's chaos is a dog chasing a car. He doesn't have a plan. Right. And and that is like the most common joker that we see. So like, this does have some reminiscence of like the golden age joker of being a mob boss. That also is a tactician of sorts, I think.

00:45:48:14 - 00:45:49:15
Brian
Yeah.

00:45:49:17 - 00:46:14:03
Alex
And if you told me that we found incontrovertible proof that like Bill Finger read this and was inspired, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not saying there's no way didn't happen. But I do think it's highly circumstantial and you know, a great they are playing in a sandbox of, you know, sort of mob bosses, crime, kings and men is is the order of the day.

00:46:14:04 - 00:46:14:13
Alex
Right.

00:46:14:13 - 00:46:49:22
Brian
That is that that was going to be that was going to be my however, to what I said is yeah. However it's like every single not even villain but like bad guy that shows up in Batman for like the first 30 issues or whatever. Almost all of them are organized crime bosses, stuff like that. And that is because that is huge at the time, like World War One through World War Two, organized crime became really, really huge, especially around Prohibition era, specifically because of prohibition.

00:46:49:22 - 00:46:52:14
Alex
Yeah, it's not just in the fiction, it's it's in the fact.

00:46:52:14 - 00:46:54:22
Brian
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're pulling from real life. Yeah.

00:46:55:03 - 00:47:18:00
Alex
Yeah. So that's the grim joker 1937 Pulp Story. Fast forward 1939, there's The Laughing Corpse, which is an episode of the Shadow Radio show. And I think this is also part of where the conflation comes from, right? Is there's some stories that have some joker like elements in the radio show and they'll lump it in with the prior story, but trying to treat them separately.

00:47:18:02 - 00:47:19:21
Alex
Brian, listen to this one. Right.

00:47:19:23 - 00:47:20:13
Brian
I did.

00:47:20:17 - 00:47:21:18
Alex
What did you think?

00:47:21:20 - 00:47:44:04
Brian
I enjoyed it a lot. I really like radio stories and audio dramas, audio books, stuff like that. There's similar but differences between all of them. But I, I liked it a lot. It's really good. Interesting storytelling. It also gave a lot of insight into like the way that people thought at the time, the way that they talked to each other.

00:47:44:07 - 00:47:44:13
Brian
Yeah, the.

00:47:44:13 - 00:48:00:16
Alex
Opening advertisement for this, I don't remember if it was in this version that I sent you in the YouTube video, but there's there's multiple copies of this of mine. And the opening advertisement is for a company called Blue Coal, and it's about buying coal to heat your house and how blue coal burns the longest and cleanest.

00:48:00:21 - 00:48:01:22
Brian
Wow. Yeah.

00:48:02:00 - 00:48:03:12
Alex
So it's like very of the moment.

00:48:03:18 - 00:48:30:18
Brian
And cleanest is not like greenhouse gases. Cleanest. This is like soot. Yes, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. Well, yeah. And we one of the things that also stood out to me like how sexist things were at the time, like, Yeah, and that's true. Like when you when you watch like even the the Sean Connery James Bond films from like the sixties and early seventies, this is decades before that.

00:48:30:20 - 00:48:40:01
Brian
And it's just was interesting, like an element of the story which which I'm sure we'll get into is this woman who's who's trying to get an apartment.

00:48:40:06 - 00:48:43:12
Alex
Margot Lane, And she's the love interest for the chateau.

00:48:43:14 - 00:48:48:17
Brian
And then she decides she wants a different apartment because of, like, really obvious reasons.

00:48:48:18 - 00:48:49:02
Alex
Yeah.

00:48:49:02 - 00:48:53:18
Brian
And Lamont, who's the main character? He's the shadow.

00:48:53:20 - 00:48:54:21
Alex
You go. Yeah.

00:48:54:23 - 00:48:58:21
Brian
Says, like, Oh, what a thing for a woman.

00:48:58:21 - 00:49:00:13
Alex
Isn't that just a woman? Yeah.

00:49:00:14 - 00:49:03:14
Brian
Isn't that just a woman? That's right. And I was like, Holy smokes.

00:49:03:18 - 00:49:04:05
Alex
It's really.

00:49:04:05 - 00:49:06:16
Brian
It's pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah, very crazy.

00:49:06:18 - 00:49:08:22
Alex
And that's not just the one moment like they do that multiple times, and.

00:49:08:22 - 00:49:10:08
Brian
That was the whole time.

00:49:10:08 - 00:49:12:01
Alex
And it's like a 30 minute episode is now on.

00:49:12:05 - 00:49:14:00
Brian
So yeah.

00:49:14:02 - 00:49:16:21
Alex
Misogyny per capita per minute.

00:49:16:23 - 00:49:23:11
Brian
Yeah. Well and also like the the this is a taxi guy. What was his name.

00:49:23:12 - 00:49:26:22
Alex
Oh I don't, I didn't write it down. She's, they're sort of.

00:49:26:22 - 00:49:27:10
Brian
The nurse.

00:49:27:10 - 00:49:36:11
Alex
He's their assistant like he's Oh he's their assistant. Yeah. They call them attacks but he helps them move in. He helps them move out. He's Yeah.

00:49:36:12 - 00:49:43:18
Brian
Yeah. So all of his comments and jokes and the way that they talk to him are not very flattering.

00:49:43:19 - 00:49:48:23
Alex
Yeah. So you get the vibe that he's not a very intelligent person and they treat him kind of mean because of that.

00:49:49:01 - 00:49:50:20
Brian
Both. I'd say they're kind of cruel.

00:49:50:21 - 00:50:06:20
Alex
Yes, I would say so. Yeah. But also he is also misogynistic. So like Lamont and Margo are like Duncan on him and he's talking about her. It doesn't make a lot of sense. It's a little weird. You definitely get the vibe that they're putting out because it actually not a lot of story here.

00:50:06:22 - 00:50:29:23
Brian
Yeah, but like, an example is like Lamont says something about, like all the odds and ends that they have to put together, like just kind of moving an apartment of his all these odds and ends. And this, this assistant refers to them as odds and evens. Yeah, right. It's just little, little things like that that are like trying to really nail home for the audience that he's not a smart person.

00:50:29:23 - 00:50:31:16
Alex
Yeah, they're playing up that he's a bozo.

00:50:31:18 - 00:50:53:09
Brian
Yeah, but separately like part of the storytelling that I think is interesting is specifically because the medium is they describe everything like they, they there's this part where a thing happens and the person goes, Oh, I dropped it. Like, as if, as if like in my personal life by myself, if I drop something, I'm going to go. I'm going to exclaim and describe what I did.

00:50:53:09 - 00:50:54:03
Alex
Yeah.

00:50:54:05 - 00:51:06:02
Brian
Right. Because it's a radio show. They have to do that. So you can follow along. Yeah. They see each other's names all the time. Yeah. Which I am like, I guess somewhat notorious that I, like rarely say people's names.

00:51:06:02 - 00:51:08:20
Alex
Sure. I've actually consciously tried to do it on the podcast.

00:51:08:22 - 00:51:22:16
Brian
Yeah. I've been trying to consciously state things as well because like we have a video feed and I make faces and I know I'm very expressive and you respond to them and I've listened back to the episodes and been like, Oh, I should have said, Yeah, you were just nodding or something.

00:51:22:16 - 00:51:23:19
Alex
Yeah, yeah, shaking.

00:51:23:19 - 00:51:45:12
Brian
And I'm trying to do better of like saying it out loud lowers totally and stuff like that. But I mean, it's part of learning and stuff. It's and it's, it's getting used to the medium and that's something that they had to really dialed in because as a radio show which stood out and not in like an annoying way or are obstructing my enjoyment of it, it's just it was a time catching.

00:51:45:12 - 00:51:47:11
Brian
So yeah, it's a time capsule.

00:51:47:11 - 00:51:50:07
Alex
I'll drop a link in the show notes. You can listen to it if you want. I recommend it.

00:51:50:08 - 00:51:52:13
Brian
I do recommend it. It was really fun.

00:51:52:15 - 00:52:11:11
Alex
So we'll summarize it really, really quick. We open up on a man talking. He's he's monologuing about how he had been drinking with a strange at bar bottoms and drinks and then agreed to catch a cab to go together to 31 Blackwell Place. And they're going to run some sort of experiment the cab ride is novel for him.

00:52:11:13 - 00:52:24:08
Alex
He says that he's been sleeping in the park, so we gather that he's homeless, right? So the reason he's going with this guy is because he's kind of desperate. This guy is like bottom drank, says he's going to take him somewhere and he's being nice. And so he goes with them and we hear bubbling and mention of test tubes.

00:52:24:08 - 00:52:35:21
Alex
We get the vibe. There's kind of like an experiment. He's going to actually says, This experiment, we get the vibe that it's like a, you know, science lab laboratory, and we never hear the other man. He doesn't say anything except for footsteps.

00:52:35:23 - 00:52:56:18
Brian
Yeah. So? So this is supposed to be kind of a more adult story, like a scarier story. And I took it to be somewhat of a thriller because of the way that they delivered some of the stuff. Like, it's. It's not supposed to be a monologue, but it is because this dude keeps he keeps saying things like, Oh, I was really it was really fun talking to you at the bar, man.

00:52:56:18 - 00:53:01:17
Brian
It was so cool. And then like you would expect someone to respond and there's just long silence.

00:53:01:22 - 00:53:02:08
Alex
That's right.

00:53:02:08 - 00:53:19:13
Brian
And then he says something else again, like, Yeah, I have another friend like you in a long time, long silence. You know, it's I haven't been a taxi for a long time. Like he's saying all the things that you're saying as if it was half of a conversation. That's right. Right. And it's, it's almost like he's fishing like, is he going to respond to this?

00:53:19:13 - 00:53:21:17
Alex
Right. You can tell he's uncomfortable.

00:53:21:19 - 00:53:39:05
Brian
But it's also like act as the listener and knowing kind of the the genre that the story is going to be in that it really like cranks up the anxiety because you just hearing this one sided story, you start to understand, oh, this isn't going to end well for this guy.

00:53:39:05 - 00:53:53:09
Alex
Yeah, it's really well done, right? They're doing exposition, they're doing tone, they're doing, you know, a lot with a little. Yeah. So the other guy approaches with the needle, what she is explaining to us that in his monologue he says, Oh, no, that's a needle. Stay away from me. What's going on?

00:53:53:09 - 00:53:54:14
Brian
I hate needles. What are you doing?

00:53:54:14 - 00:54:22:22
Alex
Yeah, he runs to the door. Door's locked. And then suddenly we hear the guys start cackling uncontrollably, laughing, and we cut to later. So Lamont Cranston, who is the shadows, True identity, and Margot Lane, his love interest are going apartment shopping. And the apartment they're going to go view is 31 Blackwell place. Right. They say that and this is where they're having all the banter with the with the assistant which I didn't include in the summary because it's not consequential to the story at all.

00:54:22:22 - 00:54:27:04
Alex
It's just like several minutes of misogyny for no reason.

00:54:27:06 - 00:54:27:23
Brian
Yeah.

00:54:28:01 - 00:54:34:17
Alex
The owner of the building, the little homeowner, they call him like a super intended or superintendent.

00:54:34:17 - 00:54:35:17
Brian
Yeah, he is.

00:54:35:17 - 00:54:41:16
Alex
A guy named Mister Laska and they show up and they knock on the door and it's like the middle of the night and last.

00:54:41:17 - 00:55:01:18
Brian
It's really, really funny too, because once, once Lamont figures what they're doing, he's like, Are you sure it's okay to go at this late of night? Yeah. And Margot Lane is like, Yeah, I talked to him on the phone and he said I could come later. And then they talk to this dude, this Mr. Laska, who's just like a turd.

00:55:01:19 - 00:55:12:03
Brian
Yeah, he's like, angry. And he's, like I said, later, it's like 10:00. I got out of bed. Yeah, he's kind of like you're. You're a Yankee. What's really funny?

00:55:12:03 - 00:55:19:01
Alex
I think Lamont says something like actually misogynistic at this point as well as like, Oh, you're dumb lady.

00:55:19:03 - 00:55:23:01
Brian
For Yeah, of course. You misunderstood him or something. Yeah, Yeah.

00:55:23:03 - 00:55:44:00
Alex
But they agreed to see him go see it. Margo's like, Oh, won't you, you know, please take me to see? And he's like, okay. They go in, they say it has high sloping ceilings. It's got a view of the river, but it's also like rundown. There's holes in the wall, which last them explains is because the previous tenant was Dr. Astrup, who was a chemist, and he used the previous place as sort of like a laboratory.

00:55:44:03 - 00:55:59:19
Alex
Right. And as they're viewing the apartment, suddenly they hear laughing and cackling coming from a different room. And so they go to another apartment in the building and they find him, a man lying on the floor laughing, and they turn him on his back and his face, all to stop as if he were laughing. And Lamont expects the body and says he's dead.

00:55:59:21 - 00:56:17:21
Alex
And then we have another time jump. We cuts later and it's the police commissioner is there and Lamont is talking to him and he says he thinks the man was murdered. The commissioner says there's no sign of violence. Why do you think that last time the attendant tells the police that the dead man is Mr. Llorens and that he's a partner of Mr. Destro, a person who is the partner they were just looking at?

00:56:17:23 - 00:56:32:04
Alex
They were together, the chemical company, and then the police doctor shows up and says there's rigor mortis in this body. It's so far advanced that Dr. Lawrence has been dead for at least 24 hours, much like bump, bump, boom, Like, how is he laughing? He's been dead.

00:56:32:06 - 00:56:36:15
Brian
Hour. Yeah, exactly. A dead man. So that's why it's called the laughing corpse, right? Yes.

00:56:36:17 - 00:56:40:12
Alex
That's the the titular laughing corpse.

00:56:40:14 - 00:56:41:07
Brian
Mm hmm.

00:56:41:09 - 00:57:00:07
Alex
We got to later. So, like, after that, that surprise cliffhanger, Lamont shows up at Dr. Death Straps. Now he's the shadow, so he's, like, doing investigation. Deathtrap, remember, is the person who's moved out of the apartment. He goes to his new place, and the transmission is like, Hey, why did you kill your partner and disrupts like, Oh, man, we both received these threatening notes last year.

00:57:00:13 - 00:57:20:06
Alex
Seven years prior, we had a third partner. So Laskar is dead, District has moved out, third partner. We cut him out the company because he was a drunkard, he was a deadbeat. He wasn't any good. So we cut him out and he was devastated, was really upset and threatened them with, quote, the laughing death in these in these letters that they would receive.

00:57:20:08 - 00:57:25:01
Alex
And they would say, quote, You will laugh, but not with joy. It will be the laugh of death.

00:57:25:03 - 00:57:27:01
Brian
That's what the note would say. Yeah. Yes.

00:57:27:03 - 00:57:42:07
Alex
And then suddenly in the middle of the conversation where dystrophies explain this, he's like, Oh, I there's something on my desk. What's this? A package addressed to me. Like, doesn't make any sense. Why would he be looking at his desk? Why would you suddenly see it? Why would he pick it up? But he's just like, Oh, man.

00:57:42:10 - 00:58:00:13
Brian
Why would he be excited? Yeah, right. Like if I lived alone. And then there was a package on my desk that I didn't put there. I'd be like, Who's been in my house? Who put that? They're highly I would be I would not be filled with joy and excitement. Like he was like, Oh, what a surprise. Yeah, Santa has been here.

00:58:00:15 - 00:58:03:03
Brian
Like, that's not what it would occur to me.

00:58:03:04 - 00:58:11:09
Alex
I must have lost it all in all of my papers. And the shadow says, Hey, don't open that box, man, and disrupts like my scientific curiosity will not permit me not to.

00:58:11:11 - 00:58:20:12
Brian
And he says that like, Yes, exactly that in quotations, like I am a curiosity killed the cat and I'm just too darn curious. Here we go. Yeah.

00:58:20:14 - 00:58:33:23
Alex
So he presses a little button on the box to open it, and inside it there's a note that says You will laugh, You will laugh, but not with joy. It will be a laugh of death. And so of course, he starts laughing. And last death laughs maniacally.

00:58:33:23 - 00:58:35:13
Brian
Yes. And dies. Yes.

00:58:35:15 - 00:58:46:04
Alex
Time jump. We're just going to leave that where it is. The shadow decides that he's going to move into death strips. All department with, you know, with his girlfriend. Right. What's her name? Margot.

00:58:46:04 - 00:58:47:00
Brian
Margot.

00:58:47:02 - 00:59:03:11
Alex
So they're moving in and Lamont is talking to Margot about his visit with Astrup. And during the conversation, he discovers that there's a needle on the button of the box. So he takes the box with them, the one that he pressed the button, and that's how the poison must have been delivered. He gets excited and leaves to continue the investigation.

00:59:03:11 - 00:59:05:10
Alex
He's like, Bye. I figured out this thing.

00:59:05:12 - 00:59:11:08
Brian
Well, we got to pause on one thing. Yeah, He got stuck by the same hypodermic needle that was in the button.

00:59:11:09 - 00:59:12:11
Alex
That's right. That's how he it.

00:59:12:11 - 00:59:30:01
Brian
And he's like, Oh, well, that's not good. And Margot is like, freaking out. She's like, Oh my God, you're going to die. The last person who did that died. Yeah, We need to get you to a doctor. And he's like, No, no, I think it's okay. And he, like, breaks open the box so he can investigate. And he's like, Yeah, there's no more poison than this.

00:59:30:01 - 00:59:31:04
Brian
I'll be fine. Yeah.

00:59:31:04 - 00:59:31:15
Alex
Yeah.

00:59:31:17 - 00:59:36:23
Brian
And I'm sure she just. I can't imagine, like, what that kind of a heart attack would feel like.

00:59:36:23 - 00:59:38:02
Alex
Oh, yeah, I love animal.

00:59:38:07 - 00:59:38:23
Brian
Like.

00:59:39:01 - 00:59:59:14
Alex
Like being a parent of a three year old. Like, I remember the first time he projectile vomited. I'm like, my son is going to die like a panic attack instant. So I know how that goes. But it was it was very ridiculous because he you know, Lamont remains very calm and he's like, well, I haven't started laughing yet.

00:59:59:16 - 01:00:17:15
Brian
This is very unconcerned. Like, yes. Yeah. They'll ask when I saw this in person, he got poked and then died. They started laughing and dying within a few seconds. It's been a few seconds. I haven't started laughing yet, so I'm probably okay. Yeah. Like, I don't know if that's how that works. Yeah.

01:00:17:17 - 01:00:33:19
Alex
So, yeah, he he pieces out and Mr. Laska, the super of the building shows up to talk to Margot, but notices that she has the box. Lamont has left the box. He sees it and he's like, How did you get that box? Like instant, like shift to, like, evil villain.

01:00:33:21 - 01:00:38:12
Brian
Yeah, Yeah, like midsentence. Like everything's cool. Where did that box go?

01:00:38:12 - 01:00:43:10
Alex
Yeah, likewise. Margot Instant damsel in distress mode. She's like, Oh, my gosh.

01:00:43:10 - 01:00:51:16
Brian
You killed the people you killed. You know, that's come that's the fact that you're concerned and you notice boxes. You must be the killer.

01:00:51:18 - 01:00:54:12
Alex
And he's like, So what if I did not going to kill you?

01:00:54:14 - 01:01:12:05
Brian
Well, I thought it was interesting that when he responded to that, he didn't answer yes or no. He was like, such a thing could have happened. Like he he doesn't say, yeah, I'm guilty. Yeah. Like, like you'd expect, you know, like, like he didn't monologue. No, he just was. Yeah. He's moved on.

01:01:12:05 - 01:01:27:12
Alex
Yeah. So he takes a very basement laboratory to inject her with the laughing serum, and the shadow shows up to stop him and he's like, You're just the third partner. You're in disguise. You claim to be the superior. And he's like, You're right. The jig is up, and he injects himself. Finn That's it. This whole story?

01:01:27:14 - 01:01:51:16
Brian
Yep. Well, one other element was that Lamont was like, Yeah, Margot. I knew pretty early on that he was the bad guy. I put. I put some stuff together, and so I convinced you to move into this apartment so that I could investigate him more. If I was Margot, I'd be like, Hey, I'm not a superhero. Don't put me in those situations.

01:01:51:18 - 01:02:02:03
Brian
I don't want to be bait anymore. Or like, that was something that stood out to me as like, Oh, this guy's a jerk to you guys. He just, like, threw her out there, and it's like, we'll see what happens.

01:02:02:04 - 01:02:15:21
Alex
Well, you know what? I. I don't have I don't have it in my notes. But that's a good point. That that is the scene that happens next is like she's like, we're leaving. We're moving out because I almost got killed here. And he's like, Oh, yeah, don't you want to move?

01:02:15:23 - 01:02:20:09
Brian
Yeah, I'm in there. Isn't that like a woman Yeah. Is that line.

01:02:20:11 - 01:02:21:12
Alex
On douche bag?

01:02:21:14 - 01:02:27:22
Brian
Exactly. Yeah. That that was one of the biggest takeaways for me is like, Oh, the Shadows is kind of a jerk.

01:02:28:00 - 01:02:32:00
Alex
So I'm interested. Brian, do you buy this as an inspiration for the Joker?

01:02:32:02 - 01:02:34:16
Brian
Inspiration, Sure. Okay.

01:02:34:18 - 01:02:39:23
Alex
And that's because the laughing is kind of like the smiling victims in Batman number one.

01:02:40:04 - 01:03:04:12
Brian
Yeah, because it's got this similar idea and it builds over time. He's got the the gas the it's not fear toxin, but it's like the laughing toxin that that he injects. And I die with a smile on the face. So that that was something that I took as believable as a inspiration. But it's not going to be like a full rip of a character.

01:03:04:12 - 01:03:06:03
Brian
It's just an element that.

01:03:06:05 - 01:03:22:12
Alex
So if you told me again, like I said before, if you told me for sure Bill Finger read this, and for sure it was an inspiration, I wouldn't contested, right? But you'd have to have proof. And without proof and just the circumstance of like this story exists and so does Batman. I don't and I'll talk a little bit about why.

01:03:22:14 - 01:03:47:14
Alex
And that's because this radio story happens in March, on March 10th, 1940, which is just one month before Batman number one. So they would have had to have had a pretty fast turnaround time. You got to remember, the whole comic is drawn by hand, Right. And is a compilation of many stories. So they have to decide that they're going to write two whole stories after having read it, heard this radio show, and that they're going to incorporate that stuff.

01:03:47:14 - 01:03:58:01
Alex
So it doesn't seem super likely to me just on a time table level, although I won't say that it's impossible. Go ahead.

01:03:58:03 - 01:04:08:16
Brian
Do you have any information? Because because you've done all the research on how long it would take then to do a comic book, considering it's like three dudes, 16 to 18 hour days.

01:04:08:18 - 01:04:34:11
Alex
Right? It's possible, for sure. And this is a time when they're like ramping up heavily, right? They're adding like Batman number one has like five stories in it, and it's happening in a month that also has an issue of detective comics that has a Batman story in it. In fact, we know that there were stories in Detective and sorry, in Batman number one that were planned to occur, Detective comics, but were reused.

01:04:34:11 - 01:04:49:21
Alex
Basically. They were like, Oh, no, we're going to use it this said, you know, we had stuff sort of banked and you can actually tell if you flip through like some of them have the Jerry Robinson logo with like the Batman's face in the center and the wings. Batman. That's like the Batman logo and other ones are like the whole vibe is like earlier.

01:04:49:21 - 01:05:13:18
Alex
You're like, Oh, this could have been from the Garden or Fox Run. And it's like the art is different, vibe is different. So like, who knows? My intuition is that it takes about a month for them to make a story, but obviously they made five and one, so who knows, maybe they rushed out. But another reason is that this sort of idea of someone who is dead that is smiling is not actually particularly novel.

01:05:13:20 - 01:05:30:13
Alex
There are slightly victims in fiction. Before in 1911, there's a novel called The Dead Smile, written by a horror author named Francis Marion, who's Italian, where people have an infection smile. So like, if you see the smile, you smile too, and then you die and you have this dead smile, right? That's the thing that happens.

01:05:30:15 - 01:05:31:04
Brian
Okay.

01:05:31:06 - 01:06:01:06
Alex
And it's also the case that there's this idea, this idea known as recess sardonic, which seems to not be grounded in any sort of scientific or medical reality. But it's an idea that is around on the Internet that someone's muscles could involuntarily smile after death. If you Google around for it, you'll find articles of questionable providence, including a really poorly sourced Wikipedia article like you probably know these ones where there's like two citations and it's like one paragraph and like there's like the thing at the top.

01:06:01:06 - 01:06:04:19
Alex
It's like citation needed. You know?

01:06:04:21 - 01:06:05:14
Brian
Yeah.

01:06:05:16 - 01:06:14:09
Alex
And by my estimation, doing research, it, it seems that people are just talking about tetanus. Are you, are you familiar with tetanus.

01:06:14:14 - 01:06:21:20
Brian
Yeah. Yeah. We, we get was it every decade, every ten years you get your booster updated.

01:06:21:22 - 01:06:29:21
Alex
That's right. Every ten years you're supposed to get a tetanus shot. And people are always like when you step on a rusty nail or something. Oh, my gosh. Are you up to date on your tetanus, right?

01:06:29:23 - 01:06:32:14
Brian
Yeah, some. It's a bacteria.

01:06:32:16 - 01:06:41:18
Alex
That's right. It's a bacterial infection that, amongst other things, causes involuntary muscle spasms. It is also known as lockjaw. So have you ever heard of lockjaw? That's tetanus.

01:06:41:18 - 01:06:43:23
Brian
I have. I didn't know that was tetanus.

01:06:44:01 - 01:07:04:17
Alex
Yeah, same thing. And it's called lockjaw because those spasms often start in your jaw and mouth. So that's probably where people are inventing resuscitation. I guess from is like my mouth is doing funny things and I'm going to die, right? It's very much like the the what we're talking about with vampires where like people are trying to like basil from I found a body with blood around the mouth.

01:07:04:17 - 01:07:06:08
Alex
They're drinking blood, right?

01:07:06:10 - 01:07:22:07
Brian
It's the same, right? Yeah. If you if you do a Google image search for RECIST sardonic Danica's in, like, the first two scrolls. You've got a picture of V for Vendetta mask. Yeah. Which is what's his name?

01:07:22:09 - 01:07:23:09
Alex
I don't know.

01:07:23:11 - 01:07:45:11
Brian
I do know. I can't figure right now. He's. He's the dude. Remember? Remember the 5th of November? It's Guy Fawkes. It's the Guy Fawkes mask. And then it's just like another half scroll later. For me, at least, it's a picture of the Joker. Yeah, he says one one plus one equals three. Tetanus is the name of the picture, which is pretty funny to me.

01:07:45:13 - 01:07:48:03
Brian
Yeah. So it's one.

01:07:48:03 - 01:08:04:22
Alex
Of those things where like, Yeah, you know, Bill Finger wrote story about people with a smile, and so did a lot of other people like Theodore Tinsley did. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Bill Finger Red did or Tinsley right, because this is a real disease kind of thing that people have It's it appears in other fiction. So like, was he inspired?

01:08:04:22 - 01:08:15:11
Alex
Maybe. But I don't think it's this sort of like slam dunk of like everything that's cool about Batman came from the Shadow because I don't think you can draw that straight line. So that's my perspective on it.

01:08:15:12 - 01:08:22:09
Brian
Yeah, I hear that. And I mean, my my thought was like, it's believable. Oh, by like, no, it's not a slam dunk.

01:08:22:13 - 01:08:32:15
Alex
Yeah. And even if it is, I think it's totally reasonable to call it an inspiration the same way that like, you know, your favorite band listen to another, you know, another band and they kind of took parts of it. It's not playing.

01:08:32:16 - 01:08:35:05
Brian
Oh, yeah, right. Hmm. Okay.

01:08:35:07 - 01:08:47:15
Alex
That's all I had in terms of inspirations. That's the chapter opening shot on Pops and Radio. Do you want to talk about the second story that included the Joker that also appeared in Batman number one?

01:08:47:17 - 01:08:48:09
Brian
Yes, please.

01:08:48:14 - 01:09:05:14
Alex
Yeah. So at the end of our last episode about the Joker, you're like, Well, it's a good thing that he doesn't die. He just goes to jail at the end, right? And I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. We've got to talk about the other story and the same issue. There's a whole nother Joker story, and let's, let's talk about it.

01:09:05:16 - 01:09:41:08
Brian
Uh, okay. The title page. So this is there's a lot going on here. There's quite a moment happening. So up at the top, we've got the big Batman like wings spread, like a regular bat, but with Batman's head on it and it says Batman over the top with Robin the Boy wonder. The Joker returns, and then the there's a little blurb of Texas says once again that Harlequin of hate the Joker brings grinning death to a terrified people, a mocking doom from which no one can escape.

01:09:41:10 - 01:10:21:00
Brian
And once again, two heroic figures Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder pit their amazing skill and a supreme effort to halt this parade of crime. And then the scene below that is Batman is like grappling with a it's the Joker, obviously, but a dude in like a hot an all purple suit and a hat holding up a hatchet and and Batman is is kind of holding him from behind and like holding their wrist that the hatchet is in to keep it from continuing to swing because he had been swinging it down upon some kind of a flagpole.

01:10:21:00 - 01:10:49:18
Brian
I think it's one of those like horizontal flagpoles that you see on like buildings. Yeah. And down at the end of, that flagpole, you've got Robin, the boy wonder hanging on for dear life, probably thinking, Man, I hope he doesn't keep chopping on this flagpole because I'm mortal. And that is like the title page scene. But down in the corner, there's a couple of panels.

01:10:49:20 - 01:10:54:07
Alex
We're going to do a little time travel here. Bright and I just before this edit.

01:10:54:09 - 01:10:54:20
Brian
Where he.

01:10:54:20 - 01:11:15:01
Alex
Started describing the page, had like a moment of realization and I'm cursing and like my mind's blown. You know, that meme of like the, the, like X-ray of the brain. And it's like bigger the galaxy brain meme template. Yeah, yeah, that's me because we're recording from the future and we've actually had an episode of Judging by the Cover.

01:11:15:07 - 01:11:39:08
Alex
So this is going to come out after the first episode of Judging by the Cover, but before the second. But we've actually already recorded the second episode of Judging by the Cover. Yeah, with Shaun Winningham from the caption Life Podcast. It was a really fun episode where we go and take a look at a bunch of covers and a on Detective Comics number 40, The is this same scene from a different angle and my mind is blown.

01:11:39:10 - 01:12:01:14
Brian
Yeah. In the episode we're trying to figure out what it is because it just kind of like looks kind of like a goofy dude. And I googled it and it said it was the Joker. And this issue, this Batman number one issue, we're talking about is the exact same scene, but from a different camera angle, essentially. And and oddly, the colors are different.

01:12:01:14 - 01:12:03:13
Brian
Like I said, Joker's ring a different color suit.

01:12:03:15 - 01:12:22:12
Alex
He's like in a brown suit, but like, he's holding the hatchet and he's got a swing down the flagpole. Batman is on the back. So it's kind of wild. Like they they were like sort of co-mingling, I guess, like concepts or like they were calling back, you know, if if you're a reader of everything Batman at this point and you pick up detective comics for Off the Shelf, you're like, I remember that.

01:12:22:14 - 01:12:27:12
Alex
The Joker story from Batman number one. Yeah, that's kind of cool. Commemorating the moment.

01:12:27:14 - 01:12:37:20
Brian
As as like a peek behind the curtain, which I don't think is much of a peek because if you've been to our show chronologically, you know, we don't necessarily record in the order that we released and.

01:12:37:20 - 01:12:38:06
Alex
Muncie.

01:12:38:06 - 01:13:02:20
Brian
Recorded. Yeah, we recorded the Batman movie. Uh, feedback or reaction or review, whatever. Review. Yeah, yeah, like several months before we released it. And so that's today's a Wednesday. And one week ago on Wednesday, we talked to Sean about this, this reference we're making here. So yeah, you'll get to hear that at some point.

01:13:02:22 - 01:13:04:05
Alex
Yeah, it'll come full circle.

01:13:04:06 - 01:13:06:18
Brian
Yeah, it'll come full circle and you'll get what we're talking about.

01:13:06:20 - 01:13:23:16
Alex
So back to the story. We have a caption that says Less than two days ago, the Batman had seen the Joker thrust into a cell to await his trial. In his cell, the wily Joker plans escape. So that's why we left him at the end of the first story. Batman number one. And we got Batman in a cell and says, Jamie, will they?

01:13:23:20 - 01:13:27:16
Alex
A man of my intellect, I'll escape and make them pay for their insults.

01:13:27:18 - 01:13:34:10
Brian
Across the Saturnine face flits the ghastly grin, the terrible smile of the Joker.

01:13:34:12 - 01:13:43:00
Alex
And that Batman and that boy, if ever I meet them again, if ever I meet them again. But first I must escape Now.

01:13:43:01 - 01:13:48:05
Brian
Grabbed from the back of his mouth, the Joker unscrews two false teeth.

01:13:48:07 - 01:13:58:04
Alex
Inside each tooth is a chemical which would mix together, forms a powerful explosive. My means of escape. Wow. Yeah. He's the shoe bomber, but it's in his teeth. And it worked.

01:13:58:06 - 01:14:02:03
Brian
So usually there's, like, a false tooth that, like, spies have.

01:14:02:06 - 01:14:02:17
Alex
They bite.

01:14:02:17 - 01:14:04:09
Brian
It's just like a cyanide cap.

01:14:04:10 - 01:14:07:04
Alex
That's right. By the way, they actually did that in World War Two.

01:14:07:06 - 01:14:32:13
Brian
Yep, that's real. And this is like, instead of a utility belt, he's just got, like, utility teeth and he's like, All right, here we go. I've got an an explosive hidden within my mouth. And this is like, totally normal and fine. And hopefully I just this it's such a weird because, like, my thought is if someone was like, hey I've got this great idea, you're going to have two false teeth.

01:14:32:13 - 01:14:44:07
Brian
They're each going to have a chemical that when combined is is a strong explosive. I would be like, okay, I'm only eating oatmeal from now on because I sure as heck don't want to accidentally combine those in my mouth.

01:14:44:07 - 01:14:45:21
Alex
Yeah. Would you like a bomb in your mouth?

01:14:45:23 - 01:14:53:01
Brian
Yeah, I would not know. Yeah. Anyway, moments later, a terrific explosion blows a gaping hole in the cell wall.

01:14:53:07 - 01:14:56:10
Alex
Freedom are over, gentlemen. So we meet again. Ha ha.

01:14:56:10 - 01:14:59:13
Brian
Ha ha. We're just going to keep going over the wire.

01:14:59:13 - 01:15:05:07
Alex
I can't. I can't do it, man. Bill Finger loves it, and I'm incapable of pronouncing it.

01:15:05:09 - 01:15:15:15
Brian
It's really funny. Startling news. Oh, so this is some kind of a radio news bulletin? Startling news stories. Bruce Wayne and young Dick Grayson.

01:15:15:21 - 01:15:23:02
Alex
Flash, we've just received word that the Joker just escaped prison after mysteriously blowing up his cell. He's overpowered two guards and.

01:15:23:04 - 01:15:26:13
Brian
Well, I'll be, says Bruce Wayne.

01:15:26:15 - 01:15:29:06
Alex
The Joker's free. I could hardly believe it, says Robin.

01:15:29:08 - 01:15:38:05
Brian
I can. He's a very unusual man. He's shrewd, subtle, and above all, ruthless. Mark my words, the Joker will return with a.

01:15:38:07 - 01:15:39:08
Alex
At that moment I figured.

01:15:39:13 - 01:15:41:11
Brian
Ghosts through the gloom that.

01:15:41:11 - 01:15:58:18
Alex
Hangs over the decaying gravestones of deserted cemetery. The phantom like form pushes against a curious gravestone. The ground slips away, revealing a yawning gap at his feet. And so, yeah, that's exactly what we've got. We've got some someone sort of running through a graveyard, which is a gravestone goes into the trapdoor.

01:15:58:19 - 01:16:05:06
Brian
Yeah. Silhouette. The figure descends into the crypt. A light switches on and reveals the joker.

01:16:05:08 - 01:16:10:19
Alex
Here in my laboratory. I let all know that the Joker is still in the game and is still high card.

01:16:10:21 - 01:16:34:12
Brian
Once again, as people listen at radio just by the way, for listener, some of these are hard to read over time. Yeah because it's they're all like hand and pen and they don't have like the same quality handwriting that like current comics do. Yeah. Once again, as people listen at their radios comes the break. A deadly voice, a message of doom.

01:16:34:14 - 01:16:40:21
Alex
Here we now to Chief of police chambers. I bring death tonight at 10:00. The Joker has spoken that night.

01:16:40:22 - 01:16:43:20
Brian
A police cordon protects the man marked for death.

01:16:43:22 - 01:16:48:14
Alex
He wouldn't dare. Not to. A police chief. He wouldn't dare. Almost time. Almost time.

01:16:48:19 - 01:16:51:15
Brian
Suddenly, the jingle of the telephone bell.

01:16:51:17 - 01:16:54:14
Alex
Who you want to speak to? The chief. Just a minute. I'll put them on.

01:16:54:20 - 01:16:57:16
Brian
What? I can't hear you. Speak louder.

01:16:57:18 - 01:16:59:23
Alex
Joker comes from the telephone.

01:17:00:05 - 01:17:11:07
Brian
The clock tolls the hour. 10:00. The Joker has struck again. Dead. He's dead. Look on his face. That terrible grin. The sign of death from the Joker.

01:17:11:09 - 01:17:26:03
Alex
So here we've got the locked room plot again. But this time it's the police chief himself. So they're all standing round at the police station, Right? And they're all going to protect him. All the officers are waiting around, and then he dies. The exact thing that happened in the last Batman story.

01:17:26:05 - 01:17:39:12
Brian
Yeah. And it's reminiscent of the Laughing corpse. Right? So this dude's laying on the ground, this big grin, his face. He's dead. Yeah. He's not laughing. Yeah, that's true. He didn't laugh to death.

01:17:39:12 - 01:17:44:14
Alex
And it's not like he. 24 hours later, he's still laughing. To me, it's different. But I see what you're saying?

01:17:44:16 - 01:17:46:02
Brian
Yeah.

01:17:46:04 - 01:17:49:15
Alex
See there in his ear? A dart must have had that joker poison on it.

01:17:49:17 - 01:18:15:14
Brian
Sure. The Joker must have said it in the receiver. He blasted word into it strong enough to set up vibrations that blew the dart into the ear. Clever guy, eh? No, no, that's not clever. That's really dumb. What I. What I thought they were going to say, which would make a lot more sense, is that he was being really quiet, which forced the police officer to put the receiver into his ear.

01:18:15:14 - 01:18:28:14
Brian
Harder to hear. Better, which does seem natural. Sure. That's not what they said. No, he said something convoluted. He he was really loud, which the vibration was strong enough that it's shot.

01:18:28:16 - 01:18:30:11
Alex
I mean, it kind of. Sort of dances.

01:18:30:12 - 01:18:32:20
Brian
Kind of. Sort of. Yeah.

01:18:32:22 - 01:18:38:08
Alex
When we moved, it was sound all the time. That's like. That's how the vibration motor on your phone works. It's a a.

01:18:38:10 - 01:19:00:10
Brian
Trick. No, I mean, I get that. It's just the, the idea. It's the scheme is what's convoluted to me. Like the idea that like moving vibrations or sound like. Yes, sure. So it does well and that it was his plan, but he was like the only way because like an important thing about my my fear factor here is that I'm accurate.

01:19:00:10 - 01:19:16:07
Brian
As I say, someone's going to die and then they do. I predict it has to work 100% of the time. If I ever missed that, I've lost all my credibility and I'm not as scary or reliable of a villain anymore. And He hinges all of that on being able to shout loud enough.

01:19:16:09 - 01:19:22:00
Alex
Right. He doesn't have an air horn. He doesn't have like a, you know, a drum. He doesn't have a he screams Joker.

01:19:22:01 - 01:19:26:23
Brian
Yeah, it's a little stupid that that is very convoluted to me.

01:19:26:23 - 01:19:28:21
Alex
Yeah, it is for sure.

01:19:28:23 - 01:19:39:15
Brian
So the following day, a famous painting stolen from a gallery. The gallery? Oh, it is stolen from a gallery. And in its place for all the world to see.

01:19:39:17 - 01:19:42:23
Alex
It's a joker card inside the frame. And the police officer.

01:19:42:23 - 01:19:43:22
Brian
Says.

01:19:44:00 - 01:19:45:05
Alex
The Joker again.

01:19:45:07 - 01:19:52:05
Brian
A rare gem is stolen, the owner grinning in death as if he enjoyed the visit from the Joker.

01:19:52:07 - 01:20:04:05
Alex
No, we just skipped forward in time. And like, what we're doing right now is we're jumping from place to place of like, there was a painting that was stolen. There was a ruby that was stolen. They left the Joker card. The guy was smiling face. We're just like, he's on a crime.

01:20:04:05 - 01:20:21:14
Brian
Oh, a rare gem. As in, like, an actual ruby gem. I was. I Okay, I'm glad you said that. No reason I read it. I was a little bit confused because I was like the owner. The owner of the painting. And the painting is. It's a rare gem and separate. Yeah.

01:20:21:16 - 01:20:23:17
Alex
We separate that because, like, it's safe.

01:20:23:19 - 01:20:38:17
Brian
Yeah. So there's this dude who's just sitting there dead in his chair with a smile on his face, in over his car, over his shoulder. Do you see a safe in the wall that's been open. Yeah. Which that also confused me. So I'm glad you're here to explain these comics to me.

01:20:38:18 - 01:20:41:12
Alex
This is a crime montage, is what we're seeing.

01:20:41:13 - 01:20:44:13
Brian
Yes. Yeah. Every panel is something now. Yeah.

01:20:44:15 - 01:20:54:16
Alex
Once more. The mournful voice of the grim jester is is heard arc tonight at eight, I will enter the Drake Museum and steal the Cleopatra necklace. The Joker has spoken.

01:20:54:18 - 01:20:59:12
Brian
And I'll stop you. The Batman has spoken just like we'll get it.

01:20:59:12 - 01:21:01:06
Alex
Is his quill. I have spoken? Yeah.

01:21:01:08 - 01:21:03:00
Brian
I have spoken that night.

01:21:03:00 - 01:21:05:03
Alex
Determined. Please guard their precious necklace.

01:21:05:05 - 01:21:10:21
Brian
The Joker wouldn't dare show up. You hope Almost 8:00. Gosh I'm getting jumpy.

01:21:10:23 - 01:21:23:01
Alex
So. Yeah. Again, locked room plot, right? We're in a museum. There's, like, a sarcophagus in the background. There's some busts, There's a horse. For some reason, tons of police. They're all standing around the precious necklace.

01:21:23:03 - 01:21:28:19
Brian
As the clock strikes the fatal hour, the lid of the mummy case quietly opens there.

01:21:28:19 - 01:21:31:15
Alex
The melancholy joker and his venom gun.

01:21:31:17 - 01:21:45:03
Brian
And so what you see here is, is this sarcophagus with, like a purple gloved hand, grabbing it from the inside and opens it up like a door. The joker jumps out and a police officer goes, The Joker.

01:21:45:05 - 01:21:59:01
Alex
I Why be so surprised you expecting me? And he's shooting this gun at these guys. And then Joker's at the pet store where the necklace had just been, and he says, Cleopatra's Nicolas from her lily white neck.

01:21:59:01 - 01:22:03:03
Brian
Wha. I'd like to put my hands around your lilywhite neck.

01:22:03:05 - 01:22:13:10
Alex
So, yeah, there's. There's no necklace on the pedestal anymore. And looking over shoulder because someone said something behind him. It's just from the shadows. Batman. How did you get in here?

01:22:13:12 - 01:22:15:03
Brian
I might ask you the same question.

01:22:15:04 - 01:22:20:15
Alex
The baddie Batman is putting. The mighty Batman is upon the surprised Joker before he can use his venom gun.

01:22:20:20 - 01:22:23:06
Brian
Why don't you laugh now, Mr. Joker?

01:22:23:08 - 01:22:28:05
Alex
The Joker fighting with the strength of madman unleashes a smashing blow. I will yet laugh, my friend.

01:22:28:09 - 01:22:44:07
Brian
So he's doing kind of like a left hook. And he's punched Batman in the face. So they're grappling pretty well here. The mad man reaches for an ancient ax. So this is like two big old, old style, like Viking axes.

01:22:44:07 - 01:22:44:20
Alex
However.

01:22:44:20 - 01:22:57:22
Brian
Are up on the wall and the Joker reaches out and he's pulling one off. I mean, it's just like James Bond, like what you'd expect in a in a fight. Like they're just pulling weapons off the walls because art museum and they're going to fight each other.

01:22:58:00 - 01:22:59:19
Alex
I'll finish you once and for all, Mr. Batman.

01:22:59:22 - 01:23:09:19
Brian
Haha. A sheer desperate twist of the Batman's body and the mace gives him a glancing blow on the side of the head. And that's scary.

01:23:09:19 - 01:23:11:17
Alex
Yeah. Batman's kind of sudden one out of the way.

01:23:11:19 - 01:23:19:17
Brian
Yeah. Suddenly the pounding of running feet raised. It's after eight. Let's see if the boys are all right.

01:23:19:19 - 01:23:23:04
Alex
The police from downstairs, they must find me. So the Joker.

01:23:23:06 - 01:23:28:07
Brian
Police come running into the room. Look, Joker's been here. The necklace is gone.

01:23:28:09 - 01:23:31:14
Alex
Never mind the Joker. Look what I found. The Batman.

01:23:31:16 - 01:23:35:19
Brian
The boys, they have the signs of the Joker on their faces.

01:23:35:21 - 01:23:45:04
Alex
Batman. Well, we have got somebody. Now. I'm going to do something that I've wanted to do for a long time. Take off the Batman's mask and see who he really is, says one of the cops.

01:23:45:06 - 01:23:51:10
Brian
Mm hmm. So Batman's laying on the ground and a hand reaches out to wrench off Batman's cowl.

01:23:51:12 - 01:24:09:02
Alex
And, yeah, we spoke about, like, last time that and on the Robin episode that, like, Batman's fully formed at this point, like, he's really everything is snapping in place. It really makes sense. This is something that actually doesn't make sense very quickly here. Pretty soon in the Golden Age, Batman is going to be a duly deputized officer of the law.

01:24:09:03 - 01:24:22:10
Alex
Right. He's going to be working with the police. But right now he's still a vigilante and we're still acknowledging that That's a weird thing that they wouldn't want. And then there's a caption that says, well, the cat will be take it off if the Batman is revealed. As Bruce Wayne, his career as a nemesis of crime is finished.

01:24:22:12 - 01:24:24:12
Alex
Is this the end of the mighty Batman?

01:24:24:14 - 01:24:31:00
Brian
Apparently there's no no break or anything. It's just the question is posed. Then you turn the page.

01:24:31:01 - 01:24:36:00
Alex
There may have been an ad in between or something that they're cliffhanger ing past, that kind of thing.

01:24:36:00 - 01:24:57:05
Brian
But yeah, that way you quickly get through the ad. Yes. With with startling abruptness, the inert figure springs off the floor. So Batman jumps up in the air and is apparently now fighting the police. And he says, Sorry, boys, but I'm not quite ready for jail.

01:24:57:07 - 01:25:01:17
Alex
Please see, the mantle figure leaps through the window to apparently drop to the ground below.

01:25:01:22 - 01:25:08:13
Brian
The police are start shooting at him to stop him. He's going to try and drop to the ground.

01:25:08:15 - 01:25:17:14
Alex
But the police do not see is the Batman strong hands grasping the ledge of the overhang roof, swing out a powerful shove and twist upward and the Batman rolls up over the top of the roof.

01:25:17:16 - 01:25:23:06
Brian
It's pretty impressive, really. I mean, he just like he, runs. He grabs up above him.

01:25:23:11 - 01:25:23:17
Alex
Jumps.

01:25:23:17 - 01:25:34:05
Brian
Out the window, jumps up, jumps through the window. Yes. In fact, grabs on to this ledge and that's enough momentum. He swings up onto the roof.

01:25:34:10 - 01:25:34:17
Alex
Yeah.

01:25:34:17 - 01:25:40:19
Brian
Over and yeah. And then he says, nice trick if I do it. And I did.

01:25:40:21 - 01:25:42:09
Alex
He's like self narrating.

01:25:42:11 - 01:25:49:09
Brian
Yeah, he's self can guys he, there's a panel here where he's just patting himself on the back. I'm just I'm kidding. He didn't do that.

01:25:49:09 - 01:25:55:12
Alex
And then there's police looking out the window and they say I've got not a sight of him The Batman. What a man.

01:25:55:14 - 01:25:56:17
Brian
What's.

01:25:56:19 - 01:25:58:17
Alex
The Batman. What a man.

01:25:58:21 - 01:26:23:18
Brian
Except they spell it's like, hey, you say got to like got to it's kind of like that is it's not what a man. It's what a man like 8ama and that. And it's funny too, because Batman, this is like part part of Batman is that he's like, mysterious. Like he the smoke or whatever and it's just gone and they don't explain it.

01:26:23:20 - 01:26:25:14
Brian
And right here they are explaining it.

01:26:25:14 - 01:26:26:19
Alex
Yeah.

01:26:26:21 - 01:26:34:01
Brian
He's just like laying up on top of the roof like, yeah, they think I just disappeared because yeah, there's.

01:26:34:01 - 01:26:54:16
Alex
There's like a YouTube video where they edited the Christopher Nolan Batman movies where he disappears or whatever, and it's like him running away or like hiding on the ceiling and he's got like the stupid grin is like, very silly, makes it look very stupid. Like he's like, hiding around the corner behind stacks of money. Mr. Gordon's like, where to go.

01:26:54:18 - 01:26:59:04
Alex
It's very kind of childish. Yeah. Hide and seek.

01:26:59:06 - 01:27:20:08
Brian
So in this next panel, we've got a dude. He looks like a mayor type of character. He's. He's standing yellow suit, standing with his. He's got his fist up in the air. And the caption above, it says, Failure of the police to capture the Joker moves a reformer. Edgar, to public speeches.

01:27:20:10 - 01:27:36:19
Alex
If the police can't do it, we must. I tell you, the fiendish criminal must be cut. So this is like the the the stereotypical soapbox person. This is literally the soapbox, right? This is someone on the street sort of railing against politics or whatever.

01:27:36:21 - 01:27:44:23
Brian
And then there's people on the street are listening to this reformer talk and they're saying he's right. The Joker sure is making the police look silly.

01:27:45:01 - 01:27:55:22
Alex
And we get to Joker's lab and it says The Ledger, The Joker plots. Edward Martin talks too much. He might get a sore throat from talking so much. I have a medicine for him in this test tube.

01:27:56:00 - 01:28:00:18
Brian
Again, the mocking tones of the harlequin of hate coming through the radio.

01:28:00:20 - 01:28:07:10
Alex
Edgar Martin I am displeased with your talk of me prepared to die tomorrow night at nine sharp. The Joker has spoken.

01:28:07:12 - 01:28:18:15
Brian
And then there's this dude. He's the reformer. Martin Yeah, he's sitting there and he looks a little shocked and he goes, The Joker die, 9:00.

01:28:18:17 - 01:28:35:14
Alex
And then just like every other, it's like very much call and response. You know, the Joker says he's going to kill somebody on the radio. We've got that person. Now there's the next step. There's the police cordon. They're all there in the locker room together. They're going to see if they can save them.

01:28:35:16 - 01:28:38:22
Brian
Yeah, That way they can all watch him die.

01:28:39:00 - 01:28:41:08
Alex
It says that fateful night you've got.

01:28:41:08 - 01:28:44:15
Brian
You've got to help. He's killed others. He'll kill me, too.

01:28:44:17 - 01:28:53:15
Alex
Listen, Martin, the house is overrun with cops. Mouse couldn't get in here, much less the Joker. Relax. One of the boys must have left those cards for you. Why not play some solitaire?

01:28:53:17 - 01:29:25:04
Brian
Said I haven't read ahead and I like just the way he. So there's some cards, a deck of cards sitting on the table and the police officer says, Relax. One of the boys must have left those there for you. Why don't you play with them? Which seems so dumb, Because Like we know that. Like, if they were like, we got to keep this guy safe, I would, like, lock him in a bathroom or a closet or something.

01:29:25:06 - 01:29:39:15
Brian
And be like, Listen, man, it's going to be uncomfortable, but you're not going to answer any phones. You're not going to touch anything. Mike Yeah. And try to do something that's unpredictable because the Joker trying to set up predictable scenarios where you're going to get yourself killed.

01:29:39:15 - 01:29:50:00
Alex
Well, this happened in the the last story in this issue. Like the police chief said, hey, let's play cards. And it turned out the Joker was in disguise as the police chief. It's the exact same thing.

01:29:50:02 - 01:30:05:13
Brian
Yeah. So the the dude says you're right. I might take it, might take my mind off of things. So he sits down, he's shuffling the cards, and he's playing solitaire by himself. That way we know it's not exactly the same. Alex I'm sorry.

01:30:05:14 - 01:30:06:12
Alex
Because my bad.

01:30:06:17 - 01:30:16:18
Brian
Because the we don't have a dude sitting across the street could be the joker, right? And he goes, Turn it. Cut myself on the edges. Sure are. Sharp brand new deck.

01:30:16:19 - 01:30:19:05
Alex
As Martin lays out the first card, he sees.

01:30:19:07 - 01:30:30:07
Brian
What the joker, the man becomes panic stricken, called terror, clutches his heart. They're all jokers, and he starts to shake, shiver and shake.

01:30:30:09 - 01:30:36:21
Alex
Do you know the. The oeufs All berries? You don't know. Whoops. All berries. Oh, my gosh. So do you know Captain Crunch?

01:30:36:23 - 01:30:50:23
Brian
I mean. Oh, okay. Is it is this one of those things where they make Captain Crunch and people want the berries and stuff and then there's like another cereal box, that's all berries?

01:30:50:23 - 01:31:07:09
Alex
Well, this was like there was there was the commercials where there was like lure about why the cereal was the way it is. Like there used to be Captain Crush. It was just Cap'n Crunch. It was just the yellow things, right. That like, cut your mouth when you eat them. And then the commercials where they introduced the Crunch berries, and then all of a sudden there was crunch berries inside the Captain Crush.

01:31:07:09 - 01:31:21:16
Alex
And then later they had oops, all berries. And like they were in the factory and there was an accident. And like someone know, flipped a switch. And then there were boxes full of various without the Cap'n Crunch. So it was Captain Crunch without the Captain Crunch. Oops. All berries. This deck of cards is whoops.

01:31:21:16 - 01:31:57:12
Brian
All jokers. Oops, All jokers. That's funny. So it's all jokers, right? And this Martin guy is starting to, like, choke or something. And he and the caption says, a frenzied shriek so that the next panel, it says, Martin has played cards with death. And so he's laying on the ground with cards on top of him. There's a police officer investigating the cards and there's another dude, maybe a police officer.

01:31:57:12 - 01:32:04:20
Brian
He's not wearing a hat. So it's hard to tell. Yeah, they're both policemen. He's over there. Okay. Oh, is he, like, holding his hat in hand, then? Like, he's scratching his head. Surprised? Okay.

01:32:04:20 - 01:32:06:01
Alex
Yeah. He says the Joker got him.

01:32:06:01 - 01:32:30:15
Brian
But how the sharp edges on these cards must have had his poison on them. Martin cut himself on them. The Joker planted the cards there, figuring that would happen. This is another, like, very convoluted thing. It's like, okay, I'm going to I'm going to put these cards here. Yeah, It's going to be like Chekhov's gun, Like he can't not play with the cards there and he'll play with them at 9:00.

01:32:30:15 - 01:32:33:08
Alex
And he's going to cut his finger before he realizes they're all drivers.

01:32:33:13 - 01:32:40:02
Brian
And then this police officer is going to be rifling through them with his bare hands, talking about how the last guy one come on.

01:32:40:05 - 01:32:41:08
Alex
Suspicion of disbelief.

01:32:41:10 - 01:32:49:02
Brian
Yeah, a lot of lots of suspension. I like these. These are funny, but like some of these, like the Joker. He's getting lucky.

01:32:49:04 - 01:32:52:06
Alex
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous.

01:32:52:08 - 01:32:57:00
Brian
So the next day, Bruce Wayne visits his friend, Police Commissioner Gordon.

01:32:57:02 - 01:33:01:17
Alex
I tell you, Bruce, if we don't catch the Joker, they'll be calling the Batman to take my job.

01:33:01:19 - 01:33:16:17
Brian
That would be bad, wouldn't it? But I think I have an idea to get the Joker. Evidently, the Joker likes jewels because most of his crimes concern their theft. Now, why not give him a jewel to steal That would trap him.

01:33:16:19 - 01:33:28:07
Alex
Of course. Play up a famous gem, and then when he comes for it, poof, he's got. I'll get the newspapers to play up the famous Ruby. It's honorable. Cooperate with us. After we get through publicizing the Ruby, the Joker won't be able to stay away.

01:33:28:11 - 01:33:54:07
Brian
The following day. Excuse me? The following days. See many references to the fire Ruby in the newspaper. And it's just a picture of a newspaper with the headline that says. Mr. Johnson, owner of Fire Ruby, estimates its value at $100,000, which this is like this is a whole Mr. Evil or Doctor evil thing or it was another thousand dollars.

01:33:54:07 - 01:33:59:01
Brian
That's a big number, 1940, right?

01:33:59:03 - 01:34:01:15
Alex
It's a big number now, but it's a much bigger number back then.

01:34:01:17 - 01:34:02:14
Brian
Yeah.

01:34:02:16 - 01:34:21:15
Alex
The Joker scans the news with interest. The fire Ruby again, so much publicity. Could it be a trap? How? I would like to. The gem jewels, my pretty jewels. How I would love to add the fire Ruby to my collection. I must have it. I must. And he's reading the newspaper, and then he's holding a jewel kind of above him, like a prized possession big grin on his face.

01:34:21:17 - 01:34:24:08
Brian
Mm hmm. The joker nibbles at the bait.

01:34:24:14 - 01:34:31:12
Alex
He's sitting at his microphone, He's talking on the radio. He goes tomorrow night at exactly 9:00. Will still the fire rubies. The Joker has spoken.

01:34:31:14 - 01:34:41:08
Brian
The next night, the Joker walks again. So we've got the silhouette coming out of a crypt. Apparently a crypt at the cemetery.

01:34:41:13 - 01:34:46:07
Alex
Yeah, I remember he was going into the gravestone at the beginning. This is him coming out of that same hole.

01:34:46:09 - 01:34:52:01
Brian
Right. And then sometime later, a figure pauses outside a balcony window.

01:34:52:03 - 01:34:56:02
Alex
Then suddenly lights blaze on. The Joker is at last trapped.

01:34:56:04 - 01:34:58:22
Brian
Put up your hands, Joker. We've got you now.

01:34:59:00 - 01:35:04:12
Alex
Your gas gun won't do any good against our masks. Better give up. So they're all wearing gas masks and they're around with guns.

01:35:04:14 - 01:35:12:03
Brian
Mm hmm. The cunning joker swiftly drops to the floor, blazing away. So he's just shoot them with regular bullets.

01:35:12:05 - 01:35:16:18
Alex
Yeah. If my joker venom won't get you, the bullets will try to get the Joker, will you?

01:35:16:20 - 01:35:24:10
Brian
So we've got the Joker running out the back door, shooting kind of over his shoulder at police. The Joker makes for the.

01:35:24:10 - 01:35:30:06
Alex
Roof, but on the roof, Robin, the boy wonder at last. The Joker. He's got to be stopped. I'm coming for you, Joker.

01:35:30:07 - 01:35:42:19
Brian
A tremendous leap carries the joker to the next roof. Which I will say looking at this picture is a tremendous jump. I mean, this is like long jumpers can't do this job is a long jump.

01:35:42:21 - 01:35:44:21
Alex
Yeah, it's probably like 30 feet.

01:35:44:23 - 01:35:51:18
Brian
Yeah. I don't know if. If are to believe the perspective. Robin is really small over there. Yeah.

01:35:51:20 - 01:35:53:06
Alex
He's jumped a long ways.

01:35:53:08 - 01:35:57:13
Brian
A long, long ways. So a daring leap into space by Robin the boy.

01:35:57:15 - 01:36:00:06
Alex
Coming for me, are you? I beg you. Welcome.

01:36:00:07 - 01:36:11:13
Brian
As Robin is about to complete his leap, the Joker thrusts out his hand and punches Robin in the face. Robin falls down into empty space.

01:36:11:19 - 01:36:14:09
Alex
If I don't catch this pole, I'll never catch anything else.

01:36:14:11 - 01:36:32:11
Brian
Even as he falls the perfect athletic twists in midair. Oh, I made it. So Robin has reached out and grabbed one of those horizontal flagpoles, and he's hanging from it now and with a wrench that's almost. And with a wrench that almost tears his arms from his body.

01:36:32:11 - 01:36:35:19
Alex
Yeah, they verb different wrench here. Like I reached it from you.

01:36:35:21 - 01:36:44:09
Brian
Yeah, exactly. Robin's strong hand close about the pole. Meanwhile, the joker descends the fire escape.

01:36:44:11 - 01:36:46:05
Alex
I didn't hear the boy's body hit the ground.

01:36:46:05 - 01:36:50:13
Brian
Perhaps The keen eyes detect the dangling figure.

01:36:50:15 - 01:36:54:08
Alex
So you didn't after all. In that case, I'll just finish the job.

01:36:54:10 - 01:37:15:02
Brian
So that the Joker is grabbed. Yeah. He's pointing a gun. He's the Joker is down at the bottom of the fire escape, looking up at Robin hanging from the flagpole, and he's kind of pulling a gun up over his shoulder, like he's going to shoot him. Then a voice. The Batman has exposed himself to draw away the fire from Robin Joker.

01:37:15:02 - 01:37:15:15
Brian
Stop.

01:37:15:15 - 01:37:22:00
Alex
Batman. I know you wear a bulletproof vest. This time I'm going to shoot at your head. The Joker. Still the trump card.

01:37:22:01 - 01:37:46:15
Brian
In order to get into position for a shot. The Joker moves directly under the dangling boy. But at the moment, the pole. Excuse me, but at that moment, the pole breaks under Robin's weight. His figure hurtles down, down, down. It turns in midair, hits an open awning and bounces off to land on the back. The Joker.

01:37:46:17 - 01:37:48:20
Alex
Mind if I drop drop in on you?

01:37:48:22 - 01:38:12:11
Brian
So side for two things. One is the Joker never chopped away at this with the hatchet now, so that title page is B.S. And then the second thing is there was a Mythbusters where they tested Indiana and the Temple of Doom, where he falls from the awnings. Yeah. And determined that that would kill you.

01:38:12:13 - 01:38:13:03
Alex
I believe it.

01:38:13:06 - 01:38:29:04
Brian
So seeing Robin fall distance, bounce off of an awning, which they're not flexible. They're there just to catch sun and rain and stuff. Yeah, trampolines. He bounces off the awning totally fine. And then he miraculously lands on top of the Joker.

01:38:29:06 - 01:38:30:16
Alex
Yeah, it's a little ridiculous.

01:38:30:18 - 01:38:33:07
Brian
Yeah. I mean, that's part of what makes you so fun to read.

01:38:33:09 - 01:38:35:09
Alex
The Batman leaps to the attack.

01:38:35:11 - 01:38:46:21
Brian
Mr. Joker. When I get through with you, you'll look like the deuce. The deuce of like a like a like a deuce. Like A cards deuce like the number two.

01:38:46:21 - 01:38:54:00
Alex
Oh, that makes sense. I was thinking like, Yeah, the joker gets up and another battering blow.

01:38:54:02 - 01:39:11:00
Brian
Looks like your house of cards is tumbling. Not so fast with the cutlery friend. So the Joker's pulled out a knife and he's going to bring it down. But Batman, with one hand, grabs him by the wrist and is going to come and punch him with the other hand. It looks like.

01:39:11:06 - 01:39:12:17
Alex
I'll kill you yet.

01:39:12:19 - 01:39:19:02
Brian
Down, down comes the knife and closer. Mind if I try to stop you? Says Batman.

01:39:19:04 - 01:39:29:14
Alex
The Batman sidesteps. The killer clown stumbles forward into the building and then driving the knife into his own chest. Waits. Batman sidesteps the killer. Oh, sorry. Okay. This Batman esthetic.

01:39:29:18 - 01:39:58:10
Brian
You said it 100% correct. Did I? Yep. So here, here is it's it's the it's the spacing because of these weird punctuations. So the Batman sidesteps. Yes. Pause. The killer clown stumbles forward into the building. Yes, that. I think that's what was screwing you up as he didn't he didn't sidestep the killer clown. He just sidestepped. Yes. Then the killer clown walks into the building, essentially with the knife still in his hand and himself.

01:39:58:12 - 01:39:59:22
Alex
Yeah, that makes more sense.

01:40:00:00 - 01:40:05:17
Brian
The mad man staggers back to look down, unbelieving Lee at the knife in his own chest.

01:40:05:23 - 01:40:08:22
Alex
No, no, it can't be true. Yet. There it.

01:40:08:22 - 01:40:14:13
Brian
Is. Poll after poll of wild, hysterical laughter from his gaping mouth.

01:40:14:14 - 01:40:20:05
Alex
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. The joker is going to die. The laugh of the joker Hahaha clown laugh.

01:40:20:06 - 01:40:33:16
Brian
I it literally says clown laugh It does. The Joker has played his last hand and last. Then the Batman says Joker. This time you couldn't win. The cards are stacked against you.

01:40:33:20 - 01:40:36:01
Alex
Robin says Look, still grinning in death.

01:40:36:03 - 01:40:44:03
Brian
Yes. And when the flesh is gone, the grinning skull will still carry the sign of The Joker into eternity.

01:40:44:05 - 01:40:51:16
Alex
Yeah, to show up. And they're looking at Joker on the ground. He's got a knife sticking out of him, and Batman and Robin are running away.

01:40:51:18 - 01:41:10:02
Brian
There's someone on the ground. Look, Batman and that kid Robin. So then we've got the police officer looking a little bit contemplative, pulling his hat off his head says, Why? It's the Joker. It seems the Batman has saved us a lot of trouble. We'd better call the ambulance.

01:41:10:04 - 01:41:12:15
Alex
But the ambulance, a startling fact is brought to light.

01:41:12:17 - 01:41:16:02
Brian
What's the matter, doc? You look as if you've seen a ghost.

01:41:16:04 - 01:41:25:10
Alex
I might have. I just examined this man. He isn't dead. He's still alive. And he's going to live. It's time Bob came.

01:41:25:12 - 01:41:26:18
Brian
And this is the end, right?

01:41:26:20 - 01:41:31:14
Alex
That's the end. Yeah. The final panel is a non-sequitur. It doesn't have anything to do with the story.

01:41:31:16 - 01:41:51:15
Brian
It's kind of fun. Yeah. The golden rules for Robin's regulars. Robin's code. And it's. It's a initialism, whereas that spells Robin, Robin, readiness, obedience, brotherhood, industriousness and nationalism.

01:41:51:17 - 01:42:01:10
Alex
National. Yeah. And then Robin is kind of standing in the background. He's looking on at an old man and a little boy. Old man says, Thank you very much for helping an old man across the street. I'd like to repay you for it.

01:42:01:12 - 01:42:11:12
Brian
Oh No, sir. I couldn't take anything. You see, I'm a member of the Robin's regulars. Our first motto is always be helpful to those who need help.

01:42:11:13 - 01:42:30:07
Alex
Why not become of Robin, one of Robin's regulars? No button or badges needed. The world will recognize your golden acts without them. Be a robin regular by being regular. So it is something that will. People will often say that the Joker dies in the first Batman issue. And that is not the case, as you obviously see.

01:42:30:09 - 01:42:30:22
Brian
Mm hmm.

01:42:31:00 - 01:42:54:02
Alex
He gets stabbed as if he's going to die, but then the police find him, there's a medical examiner and he lives and the sort of x rayed that is that Bill finger did originally write the script for the second Batman story that appears in the same issue as the first one. It's really just a continuation that the Joker does die and that that is very common of all of the the villains that he sort of introduces them.

01:42:54:02 - 01:43:09:10
Alex
They do their thing and he writes them out at the end. And Whitney Ellsworth, the assistant editor for Batman at the time, read the script and it's already being penciled like they're doing the art already and says, no, no, no, we need to keep them. Like, I think the Joker is going to be a hit. We should have him not die.

01:43:09:11 - 01:43:15:19
Alex
So we can do more stories with them in the future. And so those last couple panels are a rewrite. They kind of did it at the last second to keep them alive.

01:43:15:20 - 01:43:18:02
Brian
It's crazy. Yeah.

01:43:18:04 - 01:43:18:19
Alex
Dodged the bullet.

01:43:19:00 - 01:43:32:10
Brian
He Yeah, I mean, they really did. It's there is a part of me that would like to go back in time, and I convinced them to kill him. And then after they've published convince them to bring him back to see how they would do it.

01:43:32:12 - 01:43:34:19
Alex
Sure. Something that you just like.

01:43:34:21 - 01:43:38:16
Brian
Yeah, I, I think that that would be kind of an interesting thing to see.

01:43:38:18 - 01:43:39:00
Alex
There we.

01:43:39:00 - 01:43:43:04
Brian
Go yeah.

01:43:43:06 - 01:43:59:06
Alex
Hey, Bat family were thrown up the bat signal if you made it this far. We hope you like the show. If you put a light on the video and help us find more caped crusaders. And if you subscribe, you'll never miss a future episode. Drop a comment down below telling us what we got wrong or you can head on over to bat lessons dot com and write us an email or send us a voice memo.

01:43:59:08 - 01:44:24:15
Alex
We'll talk about your feedback on a future episode of the show. That's also where you can find show notes and transcripts for every episode and links to all of our social media. Thanks for listening and.